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Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:52 am
by Xan
Curious what everybody's thoughts are on Julian Assange.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:25 am
by Mountaineer
Summary of my thoughts: Who? ;D ;D ;D

On a slightly more serious note: Behavior has consequences

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:35 pm
by Tyler
My feelings are complicated on this one. I can see the argument that his actions releasing classified information harmed the United States and deserves punishment. I can also see the argument that he's no different than a journalist that does this all the time with zero fear of any repercussions. And on top of that, Assange's track record for truth is much higher than that of the US media that regularly selectively leaks classified information or outright lies about it for political purposes. I always find it interesting when people attack the messenger while ignoring the message.

So to me, the core issue here is equal application of the law. Either hold him to the same standard you hold journalists and give him an award, or hold journalists to the same standard you hold him and start handing out indictments. I suspect Trump may see this as a chance to drain the swamp all around, so this may just be the beginning of a very interesting summer. I also think there's a non-zero chance he ends up cooperating in taking down a whole host of other people based on what he knows, so I probably wouldn't be celebrating this news if I'm a politician with something to hide.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:24 pm
by Cortopassi
Trump today:

President Donald Trump, when asked if he still "loves" WikiLeaks as he said in 2016, told reporters in the Oval Office that he knows "nothing about WikiLeaks."

"I know nothing about WikiLeaks. It's not my thing and I know there is something having to do with Julian Assange.
------------------
Sorry, this probably belongs in the Trump Tragicomedy thread....I could have gotten so much further in life if I didn't care about lying. ;)

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:25 pm
by Xan
Good points all, Tyler. I'm with you on it being complicated with no easy answers.

Pug is right that this has all the hallmarks of the "powers that be" wanting to get rid of somebody who's inconvenient.

What the feds are actually accusing him of seems to be conspiring with Bradley Manning to actually steal documents via hacking. If he did that, would that make him more of a criminal and less of a journalist?

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:29 pm
by sweetbthescrivener
Interesting Tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald:

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1 ... 8688294915
Here's the extremely contentious interview I did with @NPR this morning on @MorningEdition about the Assange arrest, which became contentious at the start because NPR weirdly lied by introducing me as a "colleague of Julian Assange" - starts at 3:32
Oops, interview is gone now.

Another Tweet from Greenwald:

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1 ... 3870425090
NPR bizarrely seems to have deleted their own lie-filled interview with me and replaced it with something else, even as it still promotes the page as including its interview of me. Where is it, @MorningEdition?
If you check out that second link, other Twitter users who recorded the interview are responding with links of mirrors of the interview in the thread so you can hear it. But then they start to become unavailable, and another user posts a link.

I have no idea what is going on, but it is pretty obvious that there is a serious battle going on in the background of the internet right now to frame the Assange narrative as:

Assange= Allbadthings

Greenwald's interview might be worth a listen while it is still available.

Interesting take here from journalist John Pilger.

His basic point:
Assange showed the media is an appendage of ESTABLISHED POWER. He shone a light on that & that was UNFORGIVABLE
https://twitter.com/Underground_RT/stat ... 2330214401

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:15 pm
by Xan
Xan wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:25 pm
Good points all, Tyler. I'm with you on it being complicated with no easy answers.

Pug is right that this has all the hallmarks of the "powers that be" wanting to get rid of somebody who's inconvenient.

What the feds are actually accusing him of seems to be conspiring with Bradley Manning to actually steal documents via hacking. If he did that, would that make him more of a criminal and less of a journalist?
Having listened to the Greenwald interview (thanks sweetbthescrivener), it seems that he's only accused of "encouraging" Manning to get more documents. Sounds pretty bogus.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:42 pm
by Kriegsspiel
Tyler wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:35 pm
My feelings are complicated on this one. I can see the argument that his actions releasing classified information harmed the United States and deserves punishment. I can also see the argument that he's no different than a journalist that does this all the time with zero fear of any repercussions. And on top of that, Assange's track record for truth is much higher than that of the US media that regularly selectively leaks classified information or outright lies about it for political purposes. I always find it interesting when people attack the messenger while ignoring the message.

So to me, the core issue here is equal application of the law. Either hold him to the same standard you hold journalists and give him an award, or hold journalists to the same standard you hold him and start handing out indictments. I suspect Trump may see this as a chance to drain the swamp all around, so this may just be the beginning of a very interesting summer. I also think there's a non-zero chance he ends up cooperating in taking down a whole host of other people based on what he knows, so I probably wouldn't be celebrating this news if I'm a politician with something to hide.
It's a grey situation, for sure. But I want to highlight one part:
Assange's track record for truth is much higher than that of the US media that regularly selectively leaks classified information or outright lies about it for political purposes. I always find it interesting when people attack the messenger while ignoring the message.
For me, one of the strikes against Assange/Wikileaks was that they didn't selectively leak something that was wrong (a la Snowden). Manning downloaded a shit ton of material and just handed it over. Then Wikileaks published everything. I agree transparency is good when it's to show us that our government is spying on us. Or was covering up a crime. But who benefits from knowing EDIT: OPSEC issues? Rhetorical.

But your point is valid. It's strange to me that people who mishandle classified information (especially for political purposes) with seeming impunity. In the military you'd be crushed.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:44 pm
by stuper1
sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:29 pm
the media is an appendage of ESTABLISHED POWER

How could it be any other way?

Anyone who thinks otherwise is terribly naive.

All that stuff we're taught in school about a free press being necessary for democracy, and sunlight is the best disinfectant, and whatever else, is just propaganda.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:45 pm
by Kriegsspiel
Related, people who knew Manning in the military told me he was a piece of shit. Personally, I think of Snowden as principled, and Manning as someone who just wanted to see the world burn.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:24 pm
by Tyler
Xan wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:25 pm
What the feds are actually accusing him of seems to be conspiring with Bradley Manning to actually steal documents via hacking. If he did that, would that make him more of a criminal and less of a journalist?

Well, in that case the individual who physically stole the documents and gave them to Wikileaks was pardoned* by Obama. I don't see how an unbiased observer can defend that decision while prosecuting Assange. And if we get too deep in the weeds of a publisher conspiring with an insider to illegally obtain classified info, that could get really murky for the media and their government sources really quickly.

BTW, if the general public really does get on board with the idea of taking someone down for illegally storing and disseminating massive amounts of classified data, can you even imagine the cognitive dissonance of parallel trials for Assange and Hillary?

(*) I'm leaving this up because it was quoted by others, but to clarify Manning wasn't technically pardoned but had his sentence commuted and was released from prison seven years into a 35 year sentence. Still, even if guilty it will be interesting to see what sentence people think is appropriate for Assange but not Manning.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:25 pm
by moda0306
Tyler wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:35 pm
My feelings are complicated on this one. I can see the argument that his actions releasing classified information harmed the United States and deserves punishment. I can also see the argument that he's no different than a journalist that does this all the time with zero fear of any repercussions. And on top of that, Assange's track record for truth is much higher than that of the US media that regularly selectively leaks classified information or outright lies about it for political purposes. I always find it interesting when people attack the messenger while ignoring the message.

So to me, the core issue here is equal application of the law. Either hold him to the same standard you hold journalists and give him an award, or hold journalists to the same standard you hold him and start handing out indictments. I suspect Trump may see this as a chance to drain the swamp all around, so this may just be the beginning of a very interesting summer. I also think there's a non-zero chance he ends up cooperating in taking down a whole host of other people based on what he knows, so I probably wouldn't be celebrating this news if I'm a politician with something to hide.
Let's not forget also holding politicians accountable for war crimes and the lies that made them plausible, as well as lies about the surveillance state.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:27 pm
by moda0306
Do we really see Trump doing something favorable for Assange after Pompeo called them a "non-state hostile intelligence service?"

I mean Assange is basically a hulked-out version of Snowden... and Trump wanted to execute Snowden.

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:59 pm
by jacksonM
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out in court if he is ever extradited to the United States. I tend to think that won't happen however.

The reason I think he will never stand trial in the U.S. is because the powers that be will not want all the dirty laundry aired in court and also because of the risk of having the whole case thrown out by a judge (re: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers).

Re: Assange

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:59 pm
by Libertarian666
jacksonM wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:59 pm
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out in court if he is ever extradited to the United States. I tend to think that won't happen however.

The reason I think he will never stand trial in the U.S. is because the powers that be will not want all the dirty laundry aired in court and also because of the risk of having the whole case thrown out by a judge (re: Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers).
I think he will be extradited to the US, to help Barr lock up the actual criminals.

Re: Assange

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:33 am
by WiseOne
Tyler wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:24 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:25 pm
What the feds are actually accusing him of seems to be conspiring with Bradley Manning to actually steal documents via hacking. If he did that, would that make him more of a criminal and less of a journalist?

Well, in that case the individual who physically stole the documents and gave them to Wikileaks was pardoned by Obama. I don't see how an unbiased observer can defend that decision while prosecuting Assange. And if we get too deep in the weeds of a publisher conspiring with an insider to illegally obtain classified info, that could get really murky for the media and their government sources really quickly.
Ha! I forgot about that. Chelsea Manning was (sort of) pardoned, so how come posting the stolen documents is worthy of extradiction & prosecution?

There's no question in my mind that if the documents Julian Assange posted provided dirt on Trump that resulted in Hillary winning the election, no one would be going after him and he wouldn't have had to hole up in the Ecuadorian embassy for 7 years. And there would be no investigation into election meddling, either. BTW, who do you all think pressured Ecuador into withdrawing Assange's asylum protection?

Re: Assange

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:10 am
by jacksonM
Andy McCarthy from National Review, much more knowledgeable about such things than I am, shares my belief that Assange will never see the inside of an American court room.

Lots of food for thought in this article, including the question of why was Bernie Sanders not the target of an investigation for colluding with the Russians? Emails reveal that the DNC hackers only thought Trump had a 25% chance of defeating Hillary and it was Bernie Sanders they were really trying to help.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/ ... th-russia/