New Zealand Mosque Shooting

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Xan
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New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by Xan » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:02 am

It would be interesting to hear CraigR's perspective about this, since he lives over there now. Don't know whether he ever swings by the forum anymore though. Paging Craig...
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am

Of course, it's a terrible tragedy, and I feel awful for the families. I'm sure the social justice warriors will say that the perpetrators are emboldened by having people like Trump in power. In truth, big business has snookered them into falling for the open borders policy. Big business sees all workers/consumers as fungible, when in fact they are not. When immigration happens at high rates, especially from cultures that are much different from the host, then it starts to feel like invasion. If immigration were reduced to a level where new immigrants could assimilate, then tragedies like this would be less common. So, they will blame Trump, and actually Trump is exactly the wrong person to blame.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by ochotona » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:47 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am
Of course, it's a terrible tragedy, and I feel awful for the families. I'm sure the social justice warriors will say that the perpetrators are emboldened by having people like Trump in power. In truth, big business has snookered them into falling for the open borders policy. Big business sees all workers/consumers as fungible, when in fact they are not. When immigration happens at high rates, especially from cultures that are much different from the host, then it starts to feel like invasion. If immigration were reduced to a level where new immigrants could assimilate, then tragedies like this would be less common. So, they will blame Trump, and actually Trump is exactly the wrong person to blame.
Sounds a bit too much like Driving While Black... "simply existing in New Zealand admittedly due to liberal government polices and while being very much non-Anglo". I don't like that one.

It's very fatalistic... it treats the shooting like an inevitable event, instead of a wicked act of free will. It feels like it absolves the shooter of responsibility.

"She was wearing that provocative dress, your Honor... she was asking for it"
"The Government shouldn't have let those people in in the first place... I was just reacting in a natural / inevitable way to those bad policies"

Not buying it.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:24 pm

You're not buying human nature?

Ok, whatever. Keep watching over the decades as things get even worse because the Open Borders people have made it so.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to solve the problem, because I'm sure that it won't be solved. The problem is greed. Big business wants to keep making big profits, and it sees open borders as the way to do that.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by jacksonM » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:28 pm

I can't help but wonder if the shooter ultimately chose the city of "Christchurch" to attack a mosque for symbolic reasons.

I'm sure there will be lots of recriminations and accusations about who is to blame in addition to the shooter and I suspect that Trump will probably get more than his share of it as others have said. I'm going to just tune it all out because it's become so predictable by now.

I always thought of New Zealand as this peaceful and beautiful country at one of the farthest edges of the inhabited world and always wanted to visit. We went to Australia a couple of years ago and intended to visit New Zealand but we didn't have the time so we were planning on returning some day soon.

What a shame. I guess there is nowhere you can go to get away from this kind of thing.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:05 pm

I bet if you visited some countries that have done a better job of protecting their borders you will have a better chance of avoiding these tragedies. Think places like Japan or maybe certain countries in eastern Europe (not really sure on that).

What's that old saying: good fences make good neighbors, or something like that.

Of course, even Japan has its problems and has terrible things happen on occasion.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:36 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am
When immigration happens at high rates, especially from cultures that are much different from the host, then it starts to feel like invasion. If immigration were reduced to a level where new immigrants could assimilate, then tragedies like this would be less common.
What are you trying to say? Clip below are refugee stats to New Zealand for the past few years. Pretty consistent. I tried to find some immigrant specific details but it wasn't clear to me.

All the people interviewed in from the mosque in New Zealand spoke English, many with NZ accents. Are you making an assumption they aren't assimilating? Wonder if the Aborigines or Maori considered it an invasion way back when. Lucky for the white folks they didn't have guns.

If you go back to the early 50s when my grandparent immigrated, my grandfather could speak English reasonably well, my grandmother a bit broken. They lived in an Italian area of Chicago. And the Poles lived with the Poles, Irish with Irish, etc. And no one shot each other up. By the 1st generation, my family was assimilated.

I don't know what it is in the past 20 or so years that seems to be causing this. Internet radicalization? Violence in games/TV? Hell the guy made his own real life first person shooter game. Sick bastard.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by moda0306 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:36 am

Cortopassi,

You just don't understand... when you're an alienated loser, even when sitting on a gold mine of settler-colonial-acquired majesty, every powerless brown person you encounter who struggles with the language is the emotional equivalent of having your civilization razed by Genghis Khan.

When wages and community are in decline you gotta clutch the colonial white pearls you have. This is just BOUND to happen. "Simply horrible, but..." what are you going to do? Certainly not tone down white-nationalist rhetoric to a dull foghorn...
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by jacksonM » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:12 am

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:36 am
Cortopassi,

You just don't understand... when you're an alienated loser, even when sitting on a gold mine of settler-colonial-acquired majesty, every powerless brown person you encounter who struggles with the language is the emotional equivalent of having your civilization razed by Genghis Khan.

When wages and community are in decline you gotta clutch the colonial white pearls you have. This is just BOUND to happen. "Simply horrible, but..." what are you going to do? Certainly not tone down white-nationalist rhetoric to a dull foghorn...
Okay, now we know it's all moda's fault. Being called "an alienated loser, even when sitting on a gold mine of settler-colonial-acquired majesty" can drive people like that over the edge, don't you know?
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by stuper1 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:20 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:36 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am
When immigration happens at high rates, especially from cultures that are much different from the host, then it starts to feel like invasion. If immigration were reduced to a level where new immigrants could assimilate, then tragedies like this would be less common.
What are you trying to say? Clip below are refugee stats to New Zealand for the past few years. Pretty consistent. I tried to find some immigrant specific details but it wasn't clear to me.

All the people interviewed in from the mosque in New Zealand spoke English, many with NZ accents. Are you making an assumption they aren't assimilating? Wonder if the Aborigines or Maori considered it an invasion way back when. Lucky for the white folks they didn't have guns.

If you go back to the early 50s when my grandparent immigrated, my grandfather could speak English reasonably well, my grandmother a bit broken. They lived in an Italian area of Chicago. And the Poles lived with the Poles, Irish with Irish, etc. And no one shot each other up. By the 1st generation, my family was assimilated.

I don't know what it is in the past 20 or so years that seems to be causing this. Internet radicalization? Violence in games/TV? Hell the guy made his own real life first person shooter game. Sick bastard.

Image
I live in the U.S. I know in the U.S. that immigration rates (both legal and illegal) have increased significantly since the 1960s. I know that every time I look at anything in the media they are pushing an Open Borders agenda. I'm not clear that the stats you provided above show the real picture for NZ, because they say Refugee stats. That could be quite a bit lower than total immigration stats.

It's clear to me that big business wants Open Borders. It's not clear to me that Open Borders is a good thing for most of the people who already live in a desirable country. My original point was just that Trump will get blamed, when actually Trumpian policies would cause terrible disasters like this to happen less often. I in no way was trying to deflect blame from the terrible people who killed. Terrible incidents can have both a macro-cause (lousy immigration policy) and a micro-cause (sick evil people).
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:57 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:02 am
It would be interesting to hear CraigR's perspective about this, since he lives over there now.
I think it would, too. I often think of Craig's post about Canada.

New Zealand is such a beautiful country. Yes, whites devastated the earlier inhabitants just as white future Americans and Canadians coming from England and Europe did. But the "place they built", the society: amazing. That's why everyone wants to go. Come to the West (or NZ) and experience the rule of law and the chance to build a better life -- OR -- stay and experience civil war and genital mutilation. Decisions, decisions.

I was mainly just in the natural parts of New Zealand when I was lucky enough to visit. Mountains and glaciers. But, the short time I spent in the cities was nice. People were friendly. They friendlied the shit out of me and my family when we hung out at a pub. Came over and introduced themselves, asked about us and how we liked New Zealand so far. It reminded me of time spent in London.

I know how stereotypey this sounds (because it is), but it was an island (South Island) of white people who were as friendly and unassuming as what you imagine a Polynesian island of brown people to be. I know how racist this sounds (because it is), but in the same way I wish Japan would stay homogeneous, I wish NZ would, too.

I'm not going to get my wish. People fleeing war-torn Syria and looking for peace- that counts a bit more than my desire for a private playground. I can only hope for cultural assimilation.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:54 am

Interesting charts...

Among the changes: The overall immigrant population continues to grow, but at a slower rate than before the 2007-09 recession. Recent immigrants are more likely to be from Asia than from Mexico, and are also more likely to have a college degree. The size of the unauthorized population appears to be on the decline. Deportations from within the United States are rising. And the United States in 2018 resettled the smallest number of refugees since formal creation of the refugee resettlement program in 1980.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by stuper1 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:37 am

I really don't get this argument that since white people took over say America (or New Zealand or wherever) from the Indians hundreds of years ago that now the white people are morally obligated to let somebody else into this country. What about the Indians? Do you think they were the first ones here? Or did they take it over from somebody who was here before them? Are we supposed to work all the way back to the beginning to figure out who really "owns" the land.

That's ridiculous. Surely what we need to do is that whoever is in charge of the place now needs to run it as best they can. Does that mean letting in hordes of outsiders who aren't assimilating to the prevailing culture? I certainly don't think so. Did that work out well for the Indians? I don't think a lot of people really think about that hard enough. To some people this is what it feels like when they see things changing quickly. They want to defend what they have always known. This is just human nature. Would the Indians have been better off if they had the technology to fight back more effectively? Looking at where they are now, maybe the answer is "yes". So, where does that leave us? Hopefully not killing people, but voting for politicians that will slow down the immigration rate to a level where assimilation can occur better.

Again, I'm not defending the evil person who did the NZ killings. Obviously, he's a total scumbag. It just seems like some of the arguments to support even more immigration don't really add up.

Everybody says that we should learn from history or we will be doomed to repeat it. Look into history a bit. Has rapid mixing of diverse cultures ever worked out well before? I don't really know. I'm no great student of history. However, I think I know as much as most people about human nature, and what I know of human nature is that it has some very negative attributes (tribalism, etc.). Some people think that things are different now, and all we have to do is educate our youth on the great benefits of multi-culturalism, and all will be well. I'm not so sure. Maybe in 1,000 years, when there is only one culture and skin color left on Earth (brownish-yellow or whatever). But until then, we are in for some violent times.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 am

I learned something new.
But most fascinating is that the shooter cites Candace Owens as an inspiration. Over recent days the media has gone huge on this. Some readers will know that Owens is a prominent young black Republican Trump supporter, who is also one of the leaders of the student activist group Turning Point. In his manifesto the shooter says that he wants to credit Owens in particular for inspiring him. I am told by a colleague that this is a meme on far-right message boards associated with the ‘alt-right’ who like to troll Turning Point (who they hate for being pro-Israel, among other things) by endlessly, mockingly tipping their hat to them. The fact that the shooter says what he says about Candace Owens, and says that he knows that he must disavow some of her more extreme statements [his view] reads to me like a very clear attempt to target Candace Owens, whom he clearly hates. He wishes to send the mob after her. I am sorry to say that I think people have been played for suckers here, and the media have fallen into one of the traps that the killer laid for them.
from Who should we blame for the New Zealand atrocity?
Apart from the Christchurch gunman himself, it isn’t clear that anyone else is responsible for the massacre
by Douglas Murray

https://spectator.us/blame-new-zealand-atrocity/
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by moda0306 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:20 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:49 am
I learned something new.
But most fascinating is that the shooter cites Candace Owens as an inspiration. Over recent days the media has gone huge on this. Some readers will know that Owens is a prominent young black Republican Trump supporter, who is also one of the leaders of the student activist group Turning Point. In his manifesto the shooter says that he wants to credit Owens in particular for inspiring him. I am told by a colleague that this is a meme on far-right message boards associated with the ‘alt-right’ who like to troll Turning Point (who they hate for being pro-Israel, among other things) by endlessly, mockingly tipping their hat to them. The fact that the shooter says what he says about Candace Owens, and says that he knows that he must disavow some of her more extreme statements [his view] reads to me like a very clear attempt to target Candace Owens, whom he clearly hates. He wishes to send the mob after her. I am sorry to say that I think people have been played for suckers here, and the media have fallen into one of the traps that the killer laid for them.
from Who should we blame for the New Zealand atrocity?
Apart from the Christchurch gunman himself, it isn’t clear that anyone else is responsible for the massacre
by Douglas Murray

https://spectator.us/blame-new-zealand-atrocity/
That's a very convenient and unconvincing conclusion to come to as it pertains to the killer's words for Candace Owens. Though I wouldn't "blame" Owens, her veiled calls for violence aren't a whole lot more difficult to spot than Ted Nugent's.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shooting

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:23 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:20 pm
That's a very convenient and unconvincing conclusion to come to as it pertains to the killer's words for Candace Owens. Though I wouldn't "blame" Owens, her veiled calls for violence aren't a whole lot more difficult to spot than Ted Nugent's.
Oh, that may be, but I don't think the author is saying Candace Owens was trolled by the killer, therefore she is blameless. It's just an interesting part of an article which, overall says "I don't know who is to blame, but there is an awful lot of finger-pointing going on."
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