Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

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Libertarian666
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:17 am
When I first read this, I thought it was something to do with what most colleges quietly refer to as "development cases". It's the 50 or slots per year that elite schools reserve for kids with families rich enough to donate millions. Then there's the athlete pass because sports is big money for some schools. So yeah, as Tyler says, wake me up when there's really something new happening.

The thing that struck me most though: was that actress really dumb enough to pay $500,000 to get her kids admitted to USC? USC???? Really? Harvard, Stanford or Berkeley I can understand, but....USC???? With the rich-Hollywood-parent advantage, they were pretty much guaranteed to get into one of the UC schools without having to bribe anyone to do it. I understand Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, and San Diego are all very nice places to party, uh I mean go to school too.
Those kids are apparently REALLY dumb.
But at least they came by their intellect honestly!
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:10 am

Kbg wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:10 am
+ 1 on WiseOne’s comment. Seriously, USC???

While I did not, I had some good friends who went off to some very top flight grad schools in various disciplines and we were discussing their educational experiences at the 10 yr HS reunion. We had all gone to the local state land grant school who lets almost anyone in. I asked them if they felt disadvantaged or behind when competing with students from the top elite schools where most of their fellow grad students were from and to a person they said not at all. In fact they were surprised at how well they were prepared and equally didn’t quite understand what the big deal was with those schools was anymore.

Obviously my friends were pretty bright or they wouldn’t have got into these grad schools but there are a fair number of studies that indicate the school doesn’t matter when predicting post graduation success...those predictors are a function of the individual’s personal characteristics. So super smart, immense drive, great problem solving, creative thinking etc. etc. leads to success not the graduation location.
Actually it isn't even graduating at all that makes the difference.

It's being smart enough to apply to a selective school... even if you don't get in.

"Applicants, who shared similar high SAT scores with Ivy League applicants could have been rejected from the elite schools that they applied to and yet they still enjoyed similar average salaries as the graduates from elite schools. In the study, the better predictor of earnings was the average SAT scores of the most selective school a teenager applied to and not the typical scores of the institution the student attended."

(https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/ ... nings-myth)
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Tortoise » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:10 am
Obviously my friends were pretty bright or they wouldn’t have got into these grad schools but there are a fair number of studies that indicate the school doesn’t matter when predicting post graduation success...those predictors are a function of the individual’s personal characteristics. So super smart, immense drive, great problem solving, creative thinking etc. etc. leads to success not the graduation location.
Agreed, I don't think a degree from an elite institution necessarily means that the graduate got a better education or is better prepared for the workplace. What I think an elite degree does is open certain doors (opportunities) that degrees from less prestigious institutions may not.

My degree from a top-3 engineering school has definitely opened doors for me in my career thus far (and still does). In fact, a friend I grabbed a beer with just yesterday hooked me up with a phone interview at his company recently, and he told me yesterday that a big reason why his boss was interested in talking to me was that my degree is from that elite school.

Is that fair? Probably not. Is it the way things work in reality? Apparently yes.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:14 pm

I can't help but think that's mostly cultural inertia. Like you guys are saying, equally intelligent people tend to be very similar in their success. The Bell Curve shows this in great detail. But in the early part of the 20th century, when intelligent people were still scattered among all professions and locations, one sure-fire way to know someone was intelligent was that they went to an Ivy League school like Harvard. I would imagine people still have that as their paradigm.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by jacksonM » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:56 am

As well evidenced by AOC, people are coming out of college nowadays dumb as dirt so I guess it's appropriate that they go in dumb as dirt by paying millions of dollars for the privilege.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Dieter » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:55 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:17 am
I understand Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, and San Diego are all very nice places to party, uh I mean go to school too.
Hey, don't be dissing the Banana Slugs... :)
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu May 02, 2019 7:11 am

The Chinese cheating ring.

They named it TOEFL Recall.

TOEFL RECALL


These Feds, man ;D
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Thu May 02, 2019 9:45 am

O0 That's perfect!
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by ochotona » Thu May 02, 2019 2:02 pm

What a horrible thing to do to your child to volunteer to cheat for them to get into college. They will question the validity of their every accomplishment for the rest of their lives. That's an exercise in soul killing.

It's not TOEFL Recall, it's DOFU Recall (DOFU = TOFU)

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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by jacksonM » Thu May 02, 2019 4:32 pm

ochotona wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:02 pm
What a horrible thing to do to your child to volunteer to cheat for them to get into college. They will question the validity of their every accomplishment for the rest of their lives. That's an exercise in soul killing.

It's not TOEFL Recall, it's DOFU Recall (DOFU = TOFU)

Image
It's affirmative action for rich white people.

(I have nothing against rich white people, BTW. I once aspired to be one but failed).
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by WiseOne » Thu May 02, 2019 4:41 pm

And the saddest part is that these kids will be saddled with this for life. They'll never get into any decent college ever, and so much for any career requiring anything beyond a high school diploma.

Sounds like they're mostly dumb as turds, so it might not be such an issue. Maybe instead of crazy expensive colleges someone should just invent a "party land" dispensing with all the trappings of education, except maybe for career counseling or something, so these kids have somewhere to go.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Kbg » Thu May 02, 2019 4:56 pm

The Chinese students where I attended university...don't know if they were cheating but it was clear they had a serious collaborative notes making/sharing/studying machine.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Thu May 02, 2019 8:40 pm

When I lived in Taiwan, cheating was rampant to pass the entrance exams for high schools. Yes, high schools, let alone college. Intense pressure.

In one famous case, a mother was outside the school walls talking into a microphone while her son wore an earpiece as he took the test. It must have been annoying to take the test while his mother was rattling off mathematical formulae and tidbits of Chinese history.

I think Taiwan plans to phase out those exams if they haven't already, but they were a big deal for a very long time.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu May 02, 2019 8:50 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 4:41 pm
And the saddest part is that these kids will be saddled with this for life. They'll never get into any decent college ever, and so much for any career requiring anything beyond a high school diploma.
You're talking about the kids with rich parents, I take it.
Sounds like they're mostly dumb as turds, so it might not be such an issue. Maybe instead of crazy expensive colleges someone should just invent a "party land" dispensing with all the trappings of education, except maybe for career counseling or something, so these kids have somewhere to go.
Shit, that IS a job; Instagram Influencer. Not so much for rich kids, but for attractive females, advertisers pay them for product placement since so many people are looking at their photos (or, following them). And there's lots of places for rich kids to go party and take Instagram pictures: Ibiza, Majorca, Dubai (lol), the rest of Europe, Miami, LA, etc etc...

Don't be sad , they'll be ok.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Fri May 03, 2019 1:51 pm

ochotona wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:02 pm
It's not TOEFL Recall, it's DOFU Recall (DOFU = TOFU)

http://www.pbs.org/food/wp-content/blog ... 88x162.jpg
That is a very Chinese joke. Not everyone will get that, but I appreciated it.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by InsuranceGuy » Fri May 03, 2019 9:13 pm

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Last edited by InsuranceGuy on Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by ochotona » Fri May 03, 2019 10:40 pm

Doufu Ru, stinky doufu, that will clear a room!
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 am

Front page of the (digital) WSJ says wealthy parents are transferring legal guardianship of their kids so they can get financial aid for college.

Not illegal, just really slimy.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Xan » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:24 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 am
Front page of the (digital) WSJ says wealthy parents are transferring legal guardianship of their kids so they can get financial aid for college.

Not illegal, just really slimy.
What's slimy is how colleges make up a fake sticker price that they don't really expect much of anyone to pay as a way of extracting as much as they can from people who have actually saved. It's a "well, how much have you got?" kind of racket.

Come to think of it, it's a lot like medical billing these days. Look how much insurance "saved" you off this fake price!
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:15 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:24 am
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 am
Front page of the (digital) WSJ says wealthy parents are transferring legal guardianship of their kids so they can get financial aid for college.

Not illegal, just really slimy.
What's slimy is how colleges make up a fake sticker price that they don't really expect much of anyone to pay as a way of extracting as much as they can from people who have actually saved. It's a "well, how much have you got?" kind of racket.

Come to think of it, it's a lot like medical billing these days. Look how much insurance "saved" you off this fake price!
That is indeed slimy, too, and before I got to your second paragraph I was thinking, Hmm, reminds me of medical insurance. We need them to haggle on our behalf. Main difference is that it's easier to find a cheaper college and get the same education, albeit with less prestige.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Tyler » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:33 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 am
Front page of the (digital) WSJ says wealthy parents are transferring legal guardianship of their kids so they can get financial aid for college.
They're over-thinking it. Just play by the new rules and identify as low income. ;)

I know it's easy to fault the wealthy parents in this situation, but honestly this seems like a simple lesson in incentives and unintended consequences. Set up a system to reward one group over another and enterprising people will work that system to their benefit. The core issue is not that people aren't following the rules, it's that the rules are specifically designed to milk them for all they're worth.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by dualstow » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:56 am

That's kind of what Xan said, too - "How much have you got."
I don't disagree, it's a bad practice on the school's part, but are you two both against financial aid?
Or just how it is determined who qualifies for and gets it?
Tyler wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:33 am
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 am
Front page of the (digital) WSJ says wealthy parents are transferring legal guardianship of their kids so they can get financial aid for college.
They're over-thinking it. Just play by the new rules and identify as low income. ;)

I know it's easy to fault the wealthy parents in this situation, but honestly this seems like a simple lesson in incentives and unintended consequences. Set up a system to reward one group over another and enterprising people will work that system to their benefit. The core issue is not that people aren't following the rules, it's that the rules are specifically designed to milk them for all they're worth.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Tyler » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:53 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:56 am
...are you two both against financial aid?
Or just how it is determined who qualifies for and gets it?
I'm not against financial aid, but I am against granting it primarily based on factors other than merit. BTW, can you think of another example where a legal adult is required to submit the income of their parents in an application? Why do we accept this as normal?

But more importantly, focusing on the assistance side ignores the giant blood-sucking elephant in the room. IMO the core issue is the broken system where colleges can charge insane amounts of money for a terrible product with zero feedback mechanism for when they rip students and families off with a lifetime of unsustainable debt. If I was running for president, I'd propose:

1) Allowing student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy
2) Putting colleges directly on the hook for half of that lost money

Do that and watch how quickly schools start cracking down on how much debt they allow students to take out for useless degrees. Prices would drop precipitously, and financial aid would become much less necessary for the average student. Then we could get back to thinking about how to lend a hand to kids who truly need and deserve it.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by WiseOne » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:22 am

Tyler wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:53 pm
dualstow wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:56 am
...are you two both against financial aid?
Or just how it is determined who qualifies for and gets it?
I'm not against financial aid, but I am against granting it primarily based on factors other than merit. BTW, can you think of another example where a legal adult is required to submit the income of their parents in an application? Why do we accept this as normal?

But more importantly, focusing on the assistance side ignores the giant blood-sucking elephant in the room. IMO the core issue is the broken system where colleges can charge insane amounts of money for a terrible product with zero feedback mechanism for when they rip students and families off with a lifetime of unsustainable debt. If I was running for president, I'd propose:

1) Allowing student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy
2) Putting colleges directly on the hook for half of that lost money

Do that and watch how quickly schools start cracking down on how much debt they allow students to take out for useless degrees. Prices would drop precipitously, and financial aid would become much less necessary for the average student. Then we could get back to thinking about how to lend a hand to kids who truly need and deserve it.
+100

Vote for Tyler! Both of those measures should be on every Democratic platform. Republican too.

Tuition is such a racket. Universities keep saying that their funding depends a lot more on philanthropic and grant sources than tuition, which is true. Tuition is basically there to flag the school's quality, as people assume that low tuition = low quality and vice versa.

I went to a university that used to pride itself on being "the poor man's Ivy League school" because it was every bit as selective, but held tuition at about half that of the Ivy League schools. Just after I graduated, they decided this wasn't working, so they doubled tuition and started adding a ton of student amenities, like air conditioning and nice new dorms. It had the expected effect of increasing applications. I remember being shocked the first time I came back for a reunion and saw how the students were incredibly well dressed compared to the T shirt and jean style that prevailed in my undergrad days. The place just looked like a bastion of wealth, rather than a place where most of us had part time jobs to help pay living expenses.
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Re: Largest College Admissions Scam Includes Hollywood Actresses and Coaches

Post by Kbg » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:59 am

I had a similar experience, though I went to a humble land grant state university. About a decade ago I went to my oldest daughter’s graduation at the same university and my first thought was: “Wow, this place is A LOT nicer than when I was here. Guess I know why tuition is so much more.”
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