An excellent article on TDS

[Kriegsspiel]

Um. Well I guess if she said it was being used for racism then she might be a racist. But calling neighborhoods diverse is a description of reality, not a sign that someone is racist.

[stuper1]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

Good luck if you think that some kind of legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't see the racism in the real estate example. How is that racism to call a neighborhood diverse when it IS diverse? If people want to buy in a diverse neighborhood with black people, they will buy there. If they don't, they won't. What is the racism here? Is the government going to try to tell people where they have to live?

Anybody of any color who truly wants to get ahead in this society has as good a chance of achieving it here as they do anywhere. Are the Mexicans trying to break in here because it's worse here than it is back home?

[dualstow]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

I know. I have seen interviews of Arab drivers who explained why they keep driving when they see black people hailing them. It's easy for you and me to stop there, at that sentence, but what if you're a black guy trying to get a cab? You wouldn't rest here.

Good luck if you think that some kind of legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't think that legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't see the racism in the real estate example. How is that racism to call a neighborhood diverse when it IS diverse?

Um. Well I guess if she said it was being used for racism then she might be a racist. But calling neighborhoods diverse is a description of reality, not a sign that someone is racist.

She's not a racist. She said that realtors are frequently asked "Are there black people in the neighborhood?" to which they used to reply, "We're not allowed to answer that." She later learned that some realtors would use the diverse byword.

Hey, you guys can deny it all you want. You seem to know more than the one who experienced it. I'm just telling you what she said.

[Kriegsspiel]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

I know. I have seen interviews of Arab drivers who explained why they keep driving when they see black people hailing them. It's easy for you and me to stop there, at that sentence, but what if you're a black guy trying to get a cab? You wouldn't rest here.

It's a predicament, isn't it? Outside of dressing respectably and having a pleasant countenance, what can you do? I don't think the answer is to legally require people to do things that scares them.

She's not a racist. She said that realtors are frequently asked "Are there black people in the neighborhood?" to which they used to reply, "We're not allowed to answer that." She later learned that some realtors would use the diverse byword.

Hey, you guys can deny it all you want. You seem to know more than the one who experienced it. I'm just telling you what she said.

Describing reality should not be a crime.

[dualstow]

It is indeed a predicament, and I also don’t see any solutions in legislation. Personally, I just file this under meaning-no-harm racism, and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it. Instead of a victimless crime, it’s something approaching a crime and a victim without a perpetrator, but not quite. Whatever it is, it is very real, and more important than semantic arguments.

Anyway, I don’t file it in the same place as the “Blacks are subhumans” kind of folks.

Describing reality should not be a crime

Hah. That’s a nice abstract statement that, lacking context, sounds reasonable.
What if describing reality = revealing the identities and locations of US agents to Putin’s FSB?*
What if it is a case of teaching terrorists how to blow up a hospital in Chicago?
And what if it’s used to marginalize a specific group of people?

*Edit: or maybe SVR would be the more appropriate agency.

[Kriegsspiel]

Describing reality should not be a crime

Hah. That’s a nice abstract statement that, lacking context, sounds reasonable.
What if describing reality = revealing the identities and locations of US agents to Putin’s FSB?*
What if it is a case of teaching terrorists how to blow up a hospital in Chicago?
And what if it’s used to marginalize a specific group of people?

*Edit: or maybe SVR would be the more appropriate agency.

Well, you got me there. In the context of a realtor describing a neighborhood, I think it's reasonable.

[WiseOne]

There is the whole "driving while black" thing, which is a real effect - but again, I think it is so much mixed in with cultural issues that it's hard to really say. Police patrolling scary neighborhoods are naturally going to be more on edge. I lived in West Philadelphia for a while during a particularly crime-prone period, and it gets very, very difficult not to take skin color & general demeanor & dress into account when trying to predict a stranger's actions.

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

[WiseOne]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

[moda0306]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

While I don't think of reparations as a particularly important issue to "defend against," your last points are exactly why I disagree with it and lean much more towards a citizen's dividend. We can't perfectly trace past wrongs, but we can ensure that folks don't have to be at the edge of starvation if they aren't able to work. Some of this is accomplished through our bumbled patchwork of a welfare state, but there are big holes, which is unfortunate, IMO. A floor to human misery achieves much of what reparations would with little of the associated animosity and negative attention that would come with it.

Add to that that 1800's industrial labor AND southern non-propertied white labor was only a few notches better than slavery itself AND had to compete with it, and it's a good reason that we should just avoid that battle altogether.

[jacksonM]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

There actually WERE some reparations paid to Japanese Americans in 1988 under Reagan. It was $20k for about 100k people but I think they had to have been the ones who were actually in the internment camps and not their descendants. The demand of reparations for slavery is much different because there aren't any former slaves still alive. And also, no Americans died in a civil war to free the Japanese from the camps, whereas 2% of the whole U.S. population, mostly all white males, died to free the slaves. Maybe the descendants of those people, at least the ones on the Union side, should be compensated also if we are going to go down that road.

[Kriegsspiel]

I'm fully on board with a Manna-style citizen's dividend (society, really). I just saw a story about a strawberry robot so... "we" are getting closer!

[dualstow]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism?

Could be, could be. You’d have to ask them, I guess, if they experience racism. The immigrants who speak King’s English- I always imagine that they had a good head start at home, educationwise, but of course I have no idea what proportion of them do.

I want to hear more about your experiences in Kenya sometime, btw.

Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

You’re talking about using it as an excuse, or....?
Last year, a professor was fired for using the n-word, but it was in a class about ethnic slurs and he had taught it for years. That was odd.
Another instructor was reprimanded and accused of racism for correcting the grammar of some black students. That’s also strange.

[dualstow]

I'm fully on board with a Manna-style citizen's dividend (society, really). I just saw a story about a strawberry robot so... "we" are getting closer!

A strawberry picking robot in the fields?

[Kriegsspiel]

Yup:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nat ... 00018f7d4e

[dualstow]

Wow. That is amazing. The etymology of “robot” is linked to “work” and to “drudgery”, and this is certainly a job that no one wants to do. Imagine all the sweatshop jobs being taken by robots. It’s going to happen.

[dualstow]

Reparations: Japan would owe so much money they’d be bankrupt.

[Libertarian666]

It depends on which minority race we're talking about.
Asians don't seem to be too unsuccessful compared to whites. Is that a cultural divide issue?
And of course Ashkenazis, although perhaps not really a race, are fairly successful as a group.

I guess we can't discuss what those two groups have in common, and in which they differ from the unsuccessful groups...

The number one difference is that Asians and Ashkenazis weren't brought here as slaves. Of course, they faced their own specific uphill battles. Railroad coolies, etc. Even Irish were discriminated against, despite being white. We probably all know about the "No Dogs, No Irish" signs. So, there almost certainly is a biological component at work (behind all the oppression and discrimination). There's something biological behind rape, too, but we can't just let that run free.

Ok, but how is the fact that your great-grandparents were brought here as slaves affecting present-day blacks? In particular, how does that account for their lower achievement?

[dualstow]

It’s complicated, but the short answer is that they are catching up. It’s going to take time.
Sure, for some people, it’s a choice. Bitterness, bad attitude, no desire to be a part of the system. For some.
However, I think there are also ripples of the past. Slave owners intentionally broke up the family unit. (I think that African Americans who grow up in a normal family have a shot at equal achievement).
And, it may be offensive for me to say this, but we actively bred slaves for brawn, not for Chess Club.

And then, there are those studies that indicate young black girls excel at subjects such as math on a par with white boys- up to a certain age. The studies’ authors drew the conclusion that cultural pressures changed things. In essence, that the girls’ “found out” that they were supposed to be dumber, and lo and behold, they began to fill that role.

The skeptical among us might say that they stopped scoring as high as their white peers because the subject got more complicated and that the Bell Curve was right. I don’t know, and I don’t remember all the details of the studies conducted.

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

[Libertarian666]

It’s complicated, but the short answer is that they are catching up. It’s going to take time.
Sure, for some people, it’s a choice. Bitterness, bad attitude, no desire to be a part of the system. For some.
However, I think there are also ripples of the past. Slave owners intentionally broke up the family unit. (I think that African Americans who grow up in a normal family have a shot at equal achievement).
And, it may be offensive for me to say this, but we actively bred slaves for brawn, not for Chess Club.

And then, there are those studies that indicate young black girls excel at subjects such as math on a par with white boys- up to a certain age. The studies’ authors drew the conclusion that cultural pressures changed things. In essence, that the girls’ “found out” that they were supposed to be dumber, and lo and behold, they began to fill that role.

The skeptical among us might say that they stopped scoring as high as their white peers because the subject got more complicated and that the Bell Curve was right. I don’t know, and I don’t remember all the details of the studies conducted.

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

I'd be willing to contribute my own money towards reparations in the form of a one-way ticket to the African country of their choice, as long as they give up their US citizenship and are barred from ever returning to the US.

How's that?

[WiseOne]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

[Libertarian666]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

I have a few ideas about that.

1. American undergrad schools are hideously infested with communist doctrine, which discourages independent thinking.
2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.
3. Teachers at the primary levels are, on average, the lowest-achieving students in college, so their students in turn generally aren't well prepared when they get to college.
4. There is a quota system to limit the number of students from the most intelligent cultural groups in the name of "diversity", which reduces the overall quality of the students.
5. Combining 3 and 4, the level of difficulty in college has been reduced so that students who couldn't do the work at an actual college level won't all flunk out.

Add these all up and it's not at all surprising that we have to import grad students and postdocs.

[dualstow]

Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

Laziness, victims of our own success?

[WiseOne]

I do think that things didn’t magically become equal with the end of slavery. There were Jim Crow laws, etc. You already know everything I could list. I think that has helped create the culture that WiseOne was alluding to, even if blacks themselves must be partially responsible for perpetuating it.

Yes we do have to remember that discrimination was very real and overt until around mid to late 20th century. I really can sympathize about this, but at some point hanging onto those memories becomes destructive and I think we're past that point.

About the black girls vs white boys...that is absolutely a cultural effect, and it affects everyone. Like, why are American-born science graduate students and postdocs so incredibly rare in our top universities?

I have a few ideas about that.

1. American undergrad schools are hideously infested with communist doctrine, which discourages independent thinking.
2. Intelligent men are rightly scared to go to college in the US because of the complete lack of due process if they are accused of sexual misbehavior.
3. Teachers at the primary levels are, on average, the lowest-achieving students in college, so their students in turn generally aren't well prepared when they get to college.
4. There is a quota system to limit the number of students from the most intelligent cultural groups in the name of "diversity", which reduces the overall quality of the students.
5. Combining 3 and 4, the level of difficulty in college has been reduced so that students who couldn't do the work at an actual college level won't all flunk out.

Add these all up and it's not at all surprising that we have to import grad students and postdocs.

Is there documentation to support of any of these points? Particularly #2. In terms of impact on higher education, specifically. I'd be interested to see it.

[dualstow]

Not exactly reparations, but I see today that Namibia is pushing the Germans to take responsibility for the genocide they perpetrated there.
https://www.dw.com/en/namibian-lawmaker ... er-sharing

I think they will. At least, they’ll do that before they accept responsibility for fomenting hatred in the middle east, resulting in the expulsion/flight of Jews out of places like Iraq and into Israel/Palestine.

[Kriegsspiel]

Just saw this and thought I'd share:

[Amy Harmon, NYT] No one tallies the number of black mathematicians in those departments, but as best I can tell, there are 13. That comes to seven-tenths of 1 percent of the total -— perhaps as far as any job classification gets from accurately reflecting the share of black Americans in the general adult population, which stands at 13 percent.
. . .
Blacks comprised 0.7% of those who scored 750 or above on the Math SAT, and also comprised 0.7% of Math professors. Looks to me as if there is no racial exclusion at all in doctoral level mathematics.
link

I checked; the JBHE appears to be a legit thing.