The Green New Deal

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:37 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:44 am
High speed rail is quite a downer that the US has basically zero.

Right now, I can drive from Chicago to New York, about 825 miles, in a little under 13 hours

Amtrak best case is 19 hours, worst case is 29 hours. (28 to 43 MPH average speed!)

Flight is 2 hours.

If I had a high speed rail option to avoid the airport, that could get me there in, say, 5 hours (165 MPH), you bet I would take that option.

Pic below from a monitor when we went to Italy in 2016, regional train between Rome and Venice. 153MPH. Even Italy, where government sucks terribly.
Rail travel is great in Europe. Their population centers/destinations are much closer together, and the train stations are located in places you want to get off the train at. I imagine they had an easier time with getting right-of-way on prime track routes than the US would. There are only a couple places in the US where rail travel would work well, mostly high population-density places with a lot of destinations within 300 miles.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am

That is indeed impressive for Italy! I love Italy, but I'm always surprised when something gets done. O0 They're extending the Rome subway right now. I've taken the high speed rail in Taiwan and in China. In the latter nation, where the government is quite evil but gets things done, it was great to be whisked from one city to another without flying in their crashy planes.
sophie wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:27 am
Took a quick peek at the Green New Deal. It's mainly a call for Congress to get off their derrieres and stop amusing themselves with Trump-baiting, and start working on infrastructure that really does need attention. Not at all a bad thing.

Some of the items on the list are ridiculously naive, like "upgrade all existing buildings to make them energy efficient" - hell, if that were at all feasible NYC would already have done it. Others are pure socialist crap like the one calling for cash welfare for "anyone unable or unwilling to work.", "A guaranteed job for all." (Guaranteed by whom? and to do what?) and "high speed rail to make air travel non-existent" (is she not aware of the distance between the west and east coasts?) But others I could really get behind. High speed rail for mid/near distance travel, infrastructure repair, smart power grid, more sustainable/renewable energy.

I don't hate AOC the way some people do but it's fun to watch her naive optimism meet the jadedness of the swamp. Like John C Sanford, the creationist scientist Mountaineer linked to in the measles thread, she's got a good head on her shoulders and some nifty educational credentials. That doesn't always translate into practical applications.

I will reserve any judgment of AOC until she's served for ten years. She might turn out to really be something when she gets used to the levers of government.
In the meantime, maybe she's right that small changes are not enough to save us from climate change. But, it's either small changes or nothing. We would need a government like China's to make extreme changes like the ones she's suggesting.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
I will reserve any judgment of AOC until she's served for ten years. She might turn out to really be something when she gets used to the levers of government.
In reading a bit about her, it's interesting how she got into Congress. Well, it is interesting for me because I don't really pay attention to all the in-the-weeds of politics.

It was in a solidly Democrat district, where the incumbent, Crowley (who himself got into Congress through some political machinations), didn't even bother campaigning because the Republican had no chance, and he was a Party guy so he thought the Democrats weren't going to run anyone against him. But O-C did campaigning and won when "only about 20,000 voters participated in the district’s primary election." link Although the wikipedia entry puts it at nearer 30,000, of which she got about 17,000, winning by about 4,000 votes in a district with like 700,000 people (not sure how many voters).

Anyways, my reading of it all is that O-C is at odds with the Democratic party:

"Ocasio-Cortez politics were noticeably to the left of Democratic party leadership on a number of issues, including Israel. She was outraised by a 10-1 margin in her first run for political office. In a recent debate, Ocasio-Cortez also joined a growing cadre of Democratic challengers in saying that she wasn’t certain she’d support Rep. Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. "

And recently, about her platform:
Asked about the "Green New Deal" in an interview with Politico on Wednesday, Pelosi dropped this amazing bit of shade on it:
"It will be one of several or maybe many suggestions that we receive. The green dream, or whatever they call it, nobody knows what it is, but they're for it, right?"
I mean.
Pelosi knows exactly what she's doing here. Her utter dismissiveness of the "Green New Deal" -- and, by extension, AOC, who is the member most closely identified with it, is entirely intentional.
Pelosi knows that AOC is a rising national power -- particularly among the most activist and liberal left. Given Ocasio-Cortez's profile -- and her influence among young, liberal members -- Pelosi knows she can't just ignore what the New York Democrat says and does. But she isn't going to kowtow to AOC either.
Earlier this year, Ocasio-Cortez was passed over for a spot on the powerful Ways and Means Committee despite the fact that Joe Crowley, who she beat in a primary last summer, had a seat on Ways and Means. That decision didn't come by accident -- and it didn't come without Pelosi knowing about it and likely directing it.
. . .
AOC may be a star nationally, but in the House she is just a very junior member of Pelosi's majority -- albeit it one with a larger-than-normal megaphone on issues close to her. link
She's such a media darling that even if the Democratic Party tried to run someone against her next election, do they stand a chance? I wonder if they'll try anyways.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm
In reading a bit about her, it's interesting how she got into Congress.
...
It was in a solidly Democrat district, where the incumbent, Crowley (who himself got into Congress through some political machinations), didn't even bother campaigning
...
But O-C did campaigning and won when "only about 20,000 voters participated in the district’s primary election."
She's riding that populism wave for now.
And, I know I'm getting off topic, but I recently mentioned that Tlaib ran completely unopposed.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pugchief » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:12 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm
In reading a bit about her, it's interesting how she got into Congress.
...
It was in a solidly Democrat district, where the incumbent, Crowley (who himself got into Congress through some political machinations), didn't even bother campaigning
...
But O-C did campaigning and won when "only about 20,000 voters participated in the district’s primary election."

She's such a media darling that even if the Democratic Party tried to run someone against her next election, do they stand a chance? I wonder if they'll try anyways.
She's riding that populism wave for now.
And, I know I'm getting off topic, but I recently mentioned that Tlaib ran completely unopposed.
I would be shocked if Tlaib was re-elected.
If AOC shows no respect for leadership, I would not be surprised if they try to push her out by throwing support behind someone else.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:52 pm

I wouldn't be half surprised if she quits. The reality of how things work and of who's in charge is likely to come as quite a jolt to her.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:14 pm

Image

That little sliver of blue, in between the 0 and the 1 in 2018, is where you get the Green New Deals and Open Borders popping up.

EDIT

Google must be spying on me, this was the first video on my youtube homepage: Democrats Plotting To REMOVE Alexandria Ocasio Cortez from Tim Pool. Maybe that's a bit hysterical, I've been watching quite a few Tim Pool videos.

EDIT EDIT

Tim is saying pretty similar stuff to what I posted in this thread. I think he's spying on me.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:01 pm

He definitely is. O0
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by technovelist » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:15 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
Ok, so she's not stupid.

Just insane and/or evil.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:53 am

technovelist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:15 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
Ok, so she's not stupid.

Just insane and/or evil.
I am coming full circle. I assume most of us are older guys here (sorry Sophie). Doesn't anyone remember college and high school? The world is your oyster mentality, nothing can stop you, and for me at least, and I assume many, being a crapload way more liberal than you are now?

I was a member of Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund/Federation, ACLU, etc. I thought old people were destroying the planet.

Then I turned more conservative in my 30s and 40s. Listened to Rush, Fox, voted for Trump.

Now with 19 and 15 year old girls, they are turning my eyes back to the optimism and hope I used to feel when I was younger. I HAVE to feel that optimism and hope, otherwise I'd fall into a cesspool of cynicism and depression worried about my kids and how they are going to get on in this screwed up world.

So I choose to be more liberal now, because it works for me. It feels better. I am probably naive.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pugchief » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:53 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:15 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am


And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
Ok, so she's not stupid.

Just insane and/or evil.
I am coming full circle. I assume most of us are older guys here (sorry Sophie). Doesn't anyone remember college and high school? The world is your oyster mentality, nothing can stop you, and for me at least, and I assume many, being a crapload way more liberal than you are now?

I was a member of Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund/Federation, ACLU, etc. I thought old people were destroying the planet.

Then I turned more conservative in my 30s and 40s. Listened to Rush, Fox, voted for Trump.

Now with 19 and 15 year old girls, they are turning my eyes back to the optimism and hope I used to feel when I was younger. I HAVE to feel that optimism and hope, otherwise I'd fall into a cesspool of cynicism and depression worried about my kids and how they are going to get on in this screwed up world.

So I choose to be more liberal now, because it works for me. It feels better. I am probably naive.
I have never listened to Rush nor Fox, but I did vote for Trump and I, like you, used to be very liberal (although never leftist) when I was younger. But I also hadn't spent 30 years of hard work building a business and portfolio yet, which is why young adults can be the way they are.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:43 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:53 am
I am coming full circle. I assume most of us are older guys here (sorry Sophie).
You're sorry you assumed sophie was a older guy, or you're sorry she isn't?
Doesn't anyone remember college and high school? The world is your oyster mentality, nothing can stop you, and for me at least, and I assume many, being a crapload way more liberal than you are now?
The events I remember most from Jr. High through the time I graduated college were Y2K and the tech companies all going bankrupt (remembered vaguely), 9/11 (remembered vividly, I decided to join the military then), my HS teacher's uncontained anxieties about seemingly everything, the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, Fallujah, suicide bombings happening seemingly every day all over the place, The Surge, and then finally the housing crash and financial crisis. But those were all tied in with good stuff happening, I had an awesome childhood. Intact middle class family, played sports all year, hung out with my friends, ran around in the woods. The good times continued with military training, making all new friends, going out drinking, and banging chicks. Kids and adolescents are pretty fucking resilient in general, and some of us are just over the top optimistic and happy. I don't think this is correlated with being liberal.
I was a member of Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund/Federation, ACLU, etc. I thought old people were destroying the planet.
Case in point! None of those are (what I would consider) happy or optimistic organizations. They seem like breeding grounds for the opposite. Same with listening to Rush, from what I've heard.
Now with 19 and 15 year old girls, they are turning my eyes back to the optimism and hope I used to feel when I was younger. I HAVE to feel that optimism and hope, otherwise I'd fall into a cesspool of cynicism and depression worried about my kids and how they are going to get on in this screwed up world.

So I choose to be more liberal now, because it works for me. It feels better. I am probably naive.
Is there anyone more optimistic than girls at that age? ;D
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