The Green New Deal

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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am

That is indeed impressive for Italy! I love Italy, but I'm always surprised when something gets done. O0 They're extending the Rome subway right now. I've taken the high speed rail in Taiwan and in China. In the latter nation, where the government is quite evil but gets things done, it was great to be whisked from one city to another without flying in their crashy planes.
WiseOne wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:27 am
Took a quick peek at the Green New Deal. It's mainly a call for Congress to get off their derrieres and stop amusing themselves with Trump-baiting, and start working on infrastructure that really does need attention. Not at all a bad thing.

Some of the items on the list are ridiculously naive, like "upgrade all existing buildings to make them energy efficient" - hell, if that were at all feasible NYC would already have done it. Others are pure socialist crap like the one calling for cash welfare for "anyone unable or unwilling to work.", "A guaranteed job for all." (Guaranteed by whom? and to do what?) and "high speed rail to make air travel non-existent" (is she not aware of the distance between the west and east coasts?) But others I could really get behind. High speed rail for mid/near distance travel, infrastructure repair, smart power grid, more sustainable/renewable energy.

I don't hate AOC the way some people do but it's fun to watch her naive optimism meet the jadedness of the swamp. Like John C Sanford, the creationist scientist Mountaineer linked to in the measles thread, she's got a good head on her shoulders and some nifty educational credentials. That doesn't always translate into practical applications.

I will reserve any judgment of AOC until she's served for ten years. She might turn out to really be something when she gets used to the levers of government.
In the meantime, maybe she's right that small changes are not enough to save us from climate change. But, it's either small changes or nothing. We would need a government like China's to make extreme changes like the ones she's suggesting.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
I will reserve any judgment of AOC until she's served for ten years. She might turn out to really be something when she gets used to the levers of government.
In reading a bit about her, it's interesting how she got into Congress. Well, it is interesting for me because I don't really pay attention to all the in-the-weeds of politics.

It was in a solidly Democrat district, where the incumbent, Crowley (who himself got into Congress through some political machinations), didn't even bother campaigning because the Republican had no chance, and he was a Party guy so he thought the Democrats weren't going to run anyone against him. But O-C did campaigning and won when "only about 20,000 voters participated in the district’s primary election." link Although the wikipedia entry puts it at nearer 30,000, of which she got about 17,000, winning by about 4,000 votes in a district with like 700,000 people (not sure how many voters).

Anyways, my reading of it all is that O-C is at odds with the Democratic party:

"Ocasio-Cortez politics were noticeably to the left of Democratic party leadership on a number of issues, including Israel. She was outraised by a 10-1 margin in her first run for political office. In a recent debate, Ocasio-Cortez also joined a growing cadre of Democratic challengers in saying that she wasn’t certain she’d support Rep. Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. "

And recently, about her platform:
Asked about the "Green New Deal" in an interview with Politico on Wednesday, Pelosi dropped this amazing bit of shade on it:
"It will be one of several or maybe many suggestions that we receive. The green dream, or whatever they call it, nobody knows what it is, but they're for it, right?"
I mean.
Pelosi knows exactly what she's doing here. Her utter dismissiveness of the "Green New Deal" -- and, by extension, AOC, who is the member most closely identified with it, is entirely intentional.
Pelosi knows that AOC is a rising national power -- particularly among the most activist and liberal left. Given Ocasio-Cortez's profile -- and her influence among young, liberal members -- Pelosi knows she can't just ignore what the New York Democrat says and does. But she isn't going to kowtow to AOC either.
Earlier this year, Ocasio-Cortez was passed over for a spot on the powerful Ways and Means Committee despite the fact that Joe Crowley, who she beat in a primary last summer, had a seat on Ways and Means. That decision didn't come by accident -- and it didn't come without Pelosi knowing about it and likely directing it.
. . .
AOC may be a star nationally, but in the House she is just a very junior member of Pelosi's majority -- albeit it one with a larger-than-normal megaphone on issues close to her. link
She's such a media darling that even if the Democratic Party tried to run someone against her next election, do they stand a chance? I wonder if they'll try anyways.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm
In reading a bit about her, it's interesting how she got into Congress.
...
It was in a solidly Democrat district, where the incumbent, Crowley (who himself got into Congress through some political machinations), didn't even bother campaigning
...
But O-C did campaigning and won when "only about 20,000 voters participated in the district’s primary election."
She's riding that populism wave for now.
And, I know I'm getting off topic, but I recently mentioned that Tlaib ran completely unopposed.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:52 pm

I wouldn't be half surprised if she quits. The reality of how things work and of who's in charge is likely to come as quite a jolt to her.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:14 pm

Image

That little sliver of blue, in between the 0 and the 1 in 2018, is where you get the Green New Deals and Open Borders popping up.

EDIT

Google must be spying on me, this was the first video on my youtube homepage: Democrats Plotting To REMOVE Alexandria Ocasio Cortez from Tim Pool. Maybe that's a bit hysterical, I've been watching quite a few Tim Pool videos.

EDIT EDIT

Tim is saying pretty similar stuff to what I posted in this thread. I think he's spying on me.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:01 pm

He definitely is. O0
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:15 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
Ok, so she's not stupid.

Just insane and/or evil.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:53 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:15 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
Ok, so she's not stupid.

Just insane and/or evil.
I am coming full circle. I assume most of us are older guys here (sorry WiseOne). Doesn't anyone remember college and high school? The world is your oyster mentality, nothing can stop you, and for me at least, and I assume many, being a crapload way more liberal than you are now?

I was a member of Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund/Federation, ACLU, etc. I thought old people were destroying the planet.

Then I turned more conservative in my 30s and 40s. Listened to Rush, Fox, voted for Trump.

Now with 19 and 15 year old girls, they are turning my eyes back to the optimism and hope I used to feel when I was younger. I HAVE to feel that optimism and hope, otherwise I'd fall into a cesspool of cynicism and depression worried about my kids and how they are going to get on in this screwed up world.

So I choose to be more liberal now, because it works for me. It feels better. I am probably naive.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:43 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:53 am
I am coming full circle. I assume most of us are older guys here (sorry WiseOne).
You're sorry you assumed WiseOne was a older guy, or you're sorry she isn't?
Doesn't anyone remember college and high school? The world is your oyster mentality, nothing can stop you, and for me at least, and I assume many, being a crapload way more liberal than you are now?
The events I remember most from Jr. High through the time I graduated college were Y2K and the tech companies all going bankrupt (remembered vaguely), 9/11 (remembered vividly, I decided to join the military then), my HS teacher's uncontained anxieties about seemingly everything, the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, Fallujah, suicide bombings happening seemingly every day all over the place, The Surge, and then finally the housing crash and financial crisis. But those were all tied in with good stuff happening, I had an awesome childhood. Intact middle class family, played sports all year, hung out with my friends, ran around in the woods. The good times continued with military training, making all new friends, going out drinking, and banging chicks. Kids and adolescents are pretty fucking resilient in general, and some of us are just over the top optimistic and happy. I don't think this is correlated with being liberal.
I was a member of Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund/Federation, ACLU, etc. I thought old people were destroying the planet.
Case in point! None of those are (what I would consider) happy or optimistic organizations. They seem like breeding grounds for the opposite. Same with listening to Rush, from what I've heard.
Now with 19 and 15 year old girls, they are turning my eyes back to the optimism and hope I used to feel when I was younger. I HAVE to feel that optimism and hope, otherwise I'd fall into a cesspool of cynicism and depression worried about my kids and how they are going to get on in this screwed up world.

So I choose to be more liberal now, because it works for me. It feels better. I am probably naive.
Is there anyone more optimistic than girls at that age? ;D
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm

It just occurred to me that AOC and her socialist friends have come up with the perfect plan to reduce illegal immigration - transform the U.S.A. into one of the "s***hole" countries and nobody will want to come here any more.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:41 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:14 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm
It just occurred to me that AOC and her socialist friends have come up with the perfect plan to reduce illegal immigration - transform the U.S.A. into one of the "s***hole" countries and nobody will want to come here any more.
;D

Scott Adams now thinks AOC is the de facto head of the Dem party, as all of the 2020 candidates have jumped on the GND bandwagon. Howard Schultz is correct, they are all out of touch with reality and need someone more moderate.
Pat Buchanan sees the 2020 election shaping up as a replay of 1972 when the Dems nominated George McGovern and Nixon won all but one state and 61% of the popular vote.

That may be true this time around but I wouldn't be surprised some day in the future to wake up after an election to find out that a socialist candidate had been elected. Then I guess I would know how the Dems felt with Trump defeating Clinton - only worse. And I'll be glad I have my gold coins.
Last edited by jacksonM on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:17 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:14 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 pm
It just occurred to me that AOC and her socialist friends have come up with the perfect plan to reduce illegal immigration - transform the U.S.A. into one of the "s***hole" countries and nobody will want to come here any more.
;D

Scott Adams now thinks AOC is the de facto head of the Dem party, as all of the 2020 candidates have jumped on the GND bandwagon. Howard Schultz is correct, they are all out of touch with reality and need someone more moderate.
GND?

I saw the Schultz interview on 60 minutes. I would vote for him. But it seems at least for the past couple presidents, no matter your goals or ideas, they get swallowed by the swamp.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:58 pm

GND is Green New Deal
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Duh. All I saw was Ground. Engineer in me.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm
Duh. All I saw was Ground. Engineer in me.
O0 Took me a while, too. I spend more time trying to figure out abbreviations than reading posts, sometimes. And this one is the title of the thread!
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:47 am

Darn TLAs! ;)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:02 pm

You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Fortunately there is no chance these insane proposals will be enacted.
I'm assuming that every one of these proposals will eventually be enacted in one form or another and it's only a matter of time. Do you have any evidence of failed socialist proposals to refute my belief? I don't mean that they don't work but that they eventually win their day in the sun, regardless of the harm they do.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:30 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:09 pm
Fortunately there is no chance these insane proposals will be enacted.
I'm assuming that every one of these proposals will eventually be enacted in one form or another and it's only a matter of time. Do you have any evidence of failed socialist proposals to refute my belief? I don't mean that they don't work but that they eventually win their day in the sun, regardless of the harm they do.
I should have said that they won't be enacted any time soon.
Farther out, some of them may be enacted.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:08 pm

Well I don’t know about you all, but I am very excited about this new California bullet train which will keep a lot of planes out of the sky.
I just hope nothing goes wrong! :P
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:06 pm

I'm sure that most of the Dems supporting the GND (are there any who aren't) are doing so because they have studied the science themselves and reasonably concluded that it truly is, as they say, an "existential crisis". AOC, being probably the most recent college graduate among them, was surely well-schooled on this subject the same as she was in economics.

Sarcasm intended.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:21 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:06 pm
I'm sure that most of the Dems supporting the GND (are there any who aren't) are doing so because they have studied the science themselves and reasonably concluded that it truly is, as they say, an "existential crisis". AOC, being probably the most recent college graduate among them, was surely well-schooled on this subject the same as she was in economics.

Sarcasm intended.
Whew, for a minute there I was afraid you were serious!

But you are right that she does know just as much about climate science as she does about economics.

0 = 0.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:26 pm

I believe she was an international studies major with an economics track (a couple classes), not an economics major. Unverified.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:55 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:26 pm
I believe she was an international studies major with an economics track (a couple classes), not an economics major. Unverified.
From Wikipedia
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007.[20] She came second in the Microbiology category of the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[21] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[22][23] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[24] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[25][26] During college, she served as an intern in the immigration office during the final year of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy's tenure.[27] "I was the only Spanish speaker, and as a result, as basically a kid—a 19-, 20-year-old kid—whenever a frantic call would come into the office because someone is looking for their husband because they have been snatched off the street by ICE, I was the one that had to pick up that phone," Ocasio-Cortez said. "I was the one that had to help that person navigate that system."[27]

She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.[24][28][29]
I'm assuming that she was the author of most of this Wikipedia entry.

I have no clue what "nematode C. elegans" are. Maybe WiseOne can enlighten us. Sounds pretty impressive for a high school student even if she did only come in second.

It says that she majored in economics at Boston University but what I wonder about mostly is where was it that she observed that most Americans are working three jobs and living in cars (yes, I heard her say that)? I don't know about you but I don't see anything like that in my neighborhood or anywhere close to it.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:51 pm

nematodes are tiny worms. C is a genus abbrev. and elegans is the species. I think.
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