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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:57 am
by Xan
dualstow wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:12 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.
It's classic Cost/Benefit, or rather Risk/Benefit.

I'm sure there are some out there who believe something like RFID will be injected along with treatment -- not you, Xan. I know you're just talking about the potential cover-up of side effects -- but it's a chance I'm willing to take. I also think there would be plenty of whistleblowers. The initial whistleblowers would be painted as nutcases, and I would assume they are nutcases. But, the truth would out.

We don't even have control over the air that we breathe.
Just to clarify: I don't think there's a cover-up of side effects. But it wouldn't surprise me if there was a strong urge to cover something up. And I would say my primary fear is "what might happen with this power in the future", not that anybody at all is doing anything wrong right now.

Suppose somebody were to propose that in 100 years, your great-grandchildren would be absolutely required to receive whatever injection that "they" say is needed. Would you vote yes or no on supporting that measure? It would have to be no, wouldn't it? Yet that will undoubtedly be the effect of removing all ability to opt out.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:45 pm
by Maddy
If we've learned anything over the last ten years, it's the extent to which we've been blissfully naive about who controls things and about the sociopathic policies that have been pursued in our name but without our knowledge or consent.

One of the things that impacts my assessment of the vaccine issue is the fact that virtually no one is talking about the obvious contributions to the problem of both globalism and immigrant vectors. As long as the issue remains politically charged, you have to maintain a fair degree of skepticism. And considering that there are astronomical profits to be made by minimizing risks or suppressing information, it's hard to believe that we're getting the whole story. After all, if U.S. military policy can be dictated by private corporations, why would we think public health policy would be immune from their influence?

Moreover, as long as there are big question marks about why people get cancer, autoimmune disease, and autism, I think it is too early to rule anything out. I had a wonderful conversation with a PhD immunologist recently, whose private opinion is that the rise in autoimmune disease (which he accepts as a reasonable premise) is probably due, at least in part, to an increase in the cumulative amount of antigenic assault on our bodies ("environmental crap"). The bottom line, for me, is that it makes sense to avoid unnecessary exposures, whether they be from vaccines, Monsanto products or people disembarking from airplanes.

And WiseOne, I do understand your frustration with us. I regularly find myself in the position of having to calm myself down when people start talking about UCC 2-207 and how you can escape the jurisdiction of a court by refusing to sign your name except in capital letters. What I really want to do is say, "How could you be so stupid to believe that?" I have to remind myself that people are being bombarded daily with more misleading information than they can possibly digest--much less evaluate with any degree of expertise. How many of us have the leisure to pursue a master's in epidemiology just to be able to distinguish the meritorious studies from the unmeritorious ones?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:38 am
by WiseOne
Simonjester wrote: WiseOne I posted this earlier in the discussion and it got passed by, I am curious what your opinion is
Simonjester wrote: i am not anti vaccination but if I had kids (i don’t) I would be inclined to do some research and ask some questions before vaccinating a child, my uninformed hunch is that the cocktail method of vaccination is based on an irrational fear of needles or of crying children, as is the immunisation of infants, when i was vaccinated only one was done at an age where I was to young to remember, the rest were done in early childhood (grade school age). I would probably vaccinate against the common illnesses now due to the herd immunity thing, and the fact that getting these illnesses as an adult is dangerous, but I would be extremely wary of giving them to young children during critical growth/development ages, and of using all in one shots, again just a uninformed hunch but I suspect multiple shots spread out over years is a safer and more in tune with natural immunity development than what is common vaccination practice today...
what do you think about all in one shots, and immunising the newborn and young infants? no newborn or young infant has to develop immunity to all the bad child hood stuff at once in nature, a once every year or two exposure and immunity development as an older child seems a lot more in keeping with how nature spreads and builds resistance to disease
Simonjester: I agree with your questions about vaccine schedules - unfortunately I'm not aware of any studies or supporting lab evidence to show whether there is added risk from bundling vaccines, or administering on a time-compressed schedule. It is something that probably should be studied. Of note though, many of the illnesses that prompt the vaccines also tend to strike on a compressed schedule (e.g. usually before age 7), and that's got a lot to do with how the schedule was designed.

Maddy: Not sure I understand what you're getting yet. Yes, the measles clusters have started with index cases that came from overseas, but we haven't been given any information to suggest that there's a practical way to prevent this. One of the problems with measles is that the disease can be transmitted for days before it's diagnosable. It might be reasonable, though, to add a question to the visa applications about immunizations, and to add measles to the list of required international immunizations (which currently is limited to yellow fever).

There may or may not be a rise in autoimmune diseases - remember that many of them could not be diagnosed until recently which does NOT mean that they didn't exist previously, and there's been a big increase in conditions like fibromyalgia, celiac, chronic Lyme, and chronic fatigue that have become fads and are enormously overdiagnosed. Sadly, there are a lot of physicians only too happy to prey on people who go diagnosis shopping. Your PhD friend might not be aware of these things. But, it is certainly reasonable to expect that "environmental crap" is not good for us. So where do you start? Fluoridated water, preservatives in food, growth hormones and antibiotics given to meat & milk animals, contaminants in water, unnecessary medications, airborne pollutants, outgassing of furniture and home building materials....quite a long list, and most of these have not been studied to nearly the extent that vaccines have been. If anything, I'd consider vaccines to be the safest of these. Despite a ton of studies there has never been any hint of a link with vaccines and autoimmune disease. If that's the basis of the antivaxxer argument (a theoretical worry with zero evidence despite extensive testing) then the bar for anti-science must be at an all-time low.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:04 am
by barrett
dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:59 am
Interesting. When one of my siblings contracted chicken pox, all three of us were put together to get it over with. But, with chicken pox, I thought the logic was that it's much worse if it hits you as an adult. (I'll be waiting years for a shingles vaccine. Supplies are low). We certainly weren't intentionally exposed to anything else. Is that true about chicken pox and childhood, btw? I don't know.
I contracted chicken pox when I was 33 and it was bad... and not just for a few days. I believe my immune system didn't really recover until the last year or two. Just turned 60 last September. I have asthma and the chicken pox triggered a decade of taking everything my pulmonologist could throw at it. The 1990s were my lost decade. Kinda like Japanese stock market only with breathing.

And both my wife and I got our first shingles vaccination last month (we are in CT). Hopefully our pharmacy still has a supply for round two.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:33 am
by dualstow
Barrett's back! How long did you have to wait for the shingles vax, part 1?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:18 am
by WiseOne
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:53 am
WiseOne,

Upthread you mentioned how trustworthy the CDC is. Yet in your last post you refer to Fluoride as one of the 'environmental crap'. Unless something has changed, the CDC considers water fluoridation as a boon to public health with little risk at proper levels. So which is it?
I didn't say they were infallible, just that they aren't nefarious and there's no conspiracy going on. And the extent that they are fallible is no worse than any other group (including the anti-vaxxers). Their position on fluoride is based on available studies, which do the usual thing of confusing correlation with causality. What do you think about that, personally?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:46 am
by WiseOne
That's the problem with studies of correlation, as there is always a complex web of associations and results can be unpredictable (e.g. the famous association between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.) There is in fact little difference in tooth decay between countries that do or do not fluoridate drinking water. And, negative effects (e.g. skeletal/dental fluorosis, hypothyroidism, cognitive deficits/neuronal toxicity) have been well documented.

Some of the papers that come up on google searches are in those spammy predatory journals, but here's a fairly unimpeachable source:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/m ... ing-water/

Kinda surprised the antivaxxers aren't going after this instead. It's far lower hanging fruit and a much more productive cause, IMHO.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:42 pm
by dualstow
I thought that as long as the level of fluoride is low, that it is extremely beneficial. Also, fluoride (or just fluorine?) occurs naturally in some water supplies. People discovered that teeth were better there and then...

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 pm
by jacksonM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mendations
Information discouraging people from getting vaccines for their children, which has gone viral on Facebook, especially in its Groups product, may have contributed to an increase in outbreaks of measles. The crisis drew attention on Thursday from Representative Adam Schiff, who sent a letter to Facebook Chief Executive Officer Mark Zuckerberg and Google boss Sundar Pichai, asking them to address the problem.
I don't know about the rest of you but at this point I'm more concerned about internet censorship, led by the likes of somebody like Adam Schiff, than I am of the anti-vaxxers.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:00 pm
by Xan
jacksonM wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mendations
Information discouraging people from getting vaccines for their children, which has gone viral on Facebook, especially in its Groups product, may have contributed to an increase in outbreaks of measles. The crisis drew attention on Thursday from Representative Adam Schiff, who sent a letter to Facebook Chief Executive Officer Mark Zuckerberg and Google boss Sundar Pichai, asking them to address the problem.
I don't know about the rest of you but at this point I'm more concerned about internet censorship, led by the likes of somebody like Adam Schiff, than I am of the anti-vaxxers.
No doubt about it. "People are talking too freely about things we disapprove of! Facebook, squelch them!"

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:19 am
by WiseOne
Oh yes, that ship sailed years ago. Some fake news really is "fake news", but a lot of the talk was really about censorship of ideas not approved by the powers that be.

Maybe it would be more productive for Adam Schiff to put out his own Facebook message that could go viral. Instead of a dry point by point rebuttal which no one will listen to, maybe something like "these guys are trying to kill your children!" to draw attention.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:16 am
by Maddy
You can't make this up. Hold on to your hat.

It's being reported that a major driver behind the anti-vaccination movement is Russian disinformation.
https://www.rferl.org/a/are-russian-tro ... 68471.html
Forge director Robert Califf, a former commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, has said that medical misinformation may be "the issue of our times that demands top priority."

He said combating misinformation campaigns about vaccines had become more complex now that research is demonstrating that a large amount of the social-media posts represent what he called "state-sponsored cyberwarfare, particularly from Russia."

Katharina Kieslich, a political scientist at the University of Vienna, has written that "vaccination hesitancy might be explained from a political-science perspective."

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am
by dualstow
I guess that’s actually clever of them, the sneaky bastards.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:31 pm
by Mountaineer
dualstow wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am
I guess that’s actually clever of them, the sneaky bastards.
Everyone needs a boogy man to cast blame upon and thus avoid personal responsibility for ones actions. Who wants to admit they are flawed, wrong, inept, a few bricks short? ;D

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:05 pm
by dualstow
Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:31 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:23 am
I guess that’s actually clever of them, the sneaky bastards.
Everyone needs a boogy man to cast blame upon and thus avoid personal responsibility for ones actions. Who wants to admit they are flawed, wrong, inept, a few bricks short? ;D
I don’t mind blaming Russians forstoking fears and duping people but the antivaxxers don’t blame them because they still think they’re right. They still think vaccines can cause autism or disease.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:00 am
by WiseOne
Maddy wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:16 am
You can't make this up. Hold on to your hat.

It's being reported that a major driver behind the anti-vaccination movement is Russian disinformation.
https://www.rferl.org/a/are-russian-tro ... 68471.html
Oh that is hilarious!!!!!

So are Americans really so intellectually disabled that it's impossible to believe that they can actually think of things on their own, without foreign intervention or instruction from the mass media?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:09 pm
by dualstow

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:05 am
by dualstow
In the WSJ this morning:
Big Tech Takes On Antivaccination Content in War on Misinformation

Pinterest has stopped returning search results for terms relating to vaccinations, a drastic step aimed at curbing the spread of misinformation but one that also reflects the challenge facing social-media companies in monitoring hot-button health issues.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:53 am
by Maddy
And this is supposed to assure us that the pro-vaccine people are being open and honest, and that the science is on their side?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:20 am
by dualstow
Maddy wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:53 am
And this is supposed to assure us that the pro-vaccine people are being open and honest, and that the science is on their side?
Before I answer that, is your stance, Maddy, that (1) pro-vaccine people are dishonest, and have a secret agenda; (2) science is not on their side? (3) Vaccines are harmful. They cause autism or the very malady that they are supposed to cure?
Any of the above?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:13 pm
by Maddy
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:20 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:53 am
And this is supposed to assure us that the pro-vaccine people are being open and honest, and that the science is on their side?
Before I answer that, is your stance, Maddy, that (1) pro-vaccine people are dishonest, and have a secret agenda; (2) science is not on their side? (3) Vaccines are harmful. They cause autism or the very malady that they are supposed to cure?
Any of the above?
Not necessarily any of the above, but neither am I ruling those possibilities out.

In general, I think it's prudent to avoid unnecessary exposures--especially those designed to provoke an immune response. Go take a look at the cutting-edge research regarding the link between the immune system and most chronic, degenerative disease.

As with so many politically-charged topics these days where enormous private profits are at stake, you can't take any statement of fact at face value. The best you can do is to read everything available and decide what course of action makes sense to you (which may include taking a conservative course of action when there is any room for doubt). In large part this means assessing the credibility of the proponents of one side or another. And when a spokesperson for the pro-vaccine movement comes right out and embraces the use of censorship as a means of making sure that the public hears only one unopposed view, his credibility is shot.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:53 pm
by stuper1
I'm with you Maddy. I'm not an anti-vaxxer (yet), but my faith in big government and big business is less than solid.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:02 pm
by dualstow
Maddy wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:13 pm
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:20 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:53 am
And this is supposed to assure us that the pro-vaccine people are being open and honest, and that the science is on their side?
Before I answer that, is your stance, Maddy, that (1) pro-vaccine people are dishonest, and have a secret agenda; (2) science is not on their side? (3) Vaccines are harmful. They cause autism or the very malady that they are supposed to cure?
Any of the above?
Not necessarily any of the above, but neither am I ruling those possibilities out.

In general, I think it's prudent to avoid unnecessary exposures--especially those designed to provoke an immune response. Go take a look at the cutting-edge research regarding the link between the immune system and most chronic, degenerative disease.

As with so many politically-charged topics these days where enormous private profits are at stake, you can't take any statement of fact at face value. The best you can do is to read everything available and decide what course of action makes sense to you (which may include taking a conservative course of action when there is any room for doubt). In large part this means assessing the credibility of the proponents of one side or another. And when a spokesperson for the pro-vaccine movement comes right out and embraces the use of censorship as a means of making sure that the public hears only one unopposed view, his credibility is shot.
Ok. I don't think that anything will reassure the most suspicious segment of the population that mainstream doctors are open and honest. Does that mean I'm a sucker for everything that comes out of their mouths? I don't believe so.

But, it's not just that there's an overwhelming consensus on the subject- a professional medical consensus that says vaccines are safe AND that the unvaccinated pose a risk to the general population. There is also the outbreak that spawned this thread. What are Pinterest and Youtube going to tell us next? That someone perpetrated the measles outbreak so that they could get those meddlesome skeptics into the clinic for their vaccinations?

How many children are going to die of these infectious diseases because their parents feel they are thinking for themselves?

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:20 pm
by stuper1
I guess that's part of the beauty of being a parent: you get to make decisions on what you think is best for you and your family. I've always thought that if those decisions are taken out of the parents' hands, then we might as well just hand our kids over to a government orphanage at birth, so they can be raised by the government and turned into productive citizens in whatever way that Big Brother decides. Maybe BB will let me come visit them once in a while at least.

Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:55 pm
by Mountaineer
Deleted