Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 am

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:26 pm

sophie wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:47 am
Maddy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:55 pm
Without meaning to fall into the "golden age" fallacy, I do wonder why risks generally thought statistically quite negligible 50 years ago loom so large today. Are people's immune systems shot from all the environmental crap we're exposed to? Have bugs become more virulent?
No. What the H are you all talking about??? Surviving childhood has become an expectation in our society thanks to vaccines, antibiotics, and modern water/sewer systems. Before the modern era, it was not.

I spent several months as a medical student at a mission hospital in rural Kenya. No vaccines and no "environmental crap" to speak of. Food was virtually 100% grown or raised locally, and people lived in communal mud thatched homes that were constantly rebuilt. Sounds healthy, right? Almost every night I was on call, I'd get that tap on the window that meant I needed to get up and watch a child die. That's the thing we're all forgetting: children used to die. A lot.

No doubt there are environmental toxins causing chronic health issues that need to be cleaned up, but let's just get some perspective here. Getting back to measles, yes most cases will recover just fine after a miserable few weeks. It would just suck if your kid was one of the 0.1% with the serious complications though, wouldn't it?
Well, now, hold your horses, Sophie. I wasn't comparing today's expectations and outcomes to those of the pre-modern era. For heaven's sake, I'm not THAT old! I was thinking back to the late 50s and early 60s, when the norm (and the standard of care, I'm guessing) was to let nature take its course. Had the prospect of contracting measles, chicken pox, or any of the other "normal" childhood diseases involved risks perceived to be anywhere near as significant as they are perceived to be today, "good" mothers would not have been hosting children's parties for the express purposes of exposing the entire neighborhood at once and getting it over with in a convenient, controlled fashion--apparently with the blessing of these children's pediatricians. So what, if anything, has changed?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:20 pm

I just read the following in ‘Sapiens ‘:
Archeologists have discovered the bones of Neanderthals who lived for many years with severe physical handicaps, evidence that they were cared for by their relatives.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:15 pm

Also potentially if weakly related to the “weeding” of the unfit: bullying and sibling rivalry.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:01 pm

I remember as a kid standing in line at the local high school along with all my family and all of of our neighbors to get the Sabin oral vaccine for polio - on two separate occasions because it required a double dose as best I remember it.

I also remember my brother getting sick and my parents being very worried that he had polio and possibly spending the rest of his life as a cripple or even being in an iron lung.

I don't remember hearing of anyone getting polio after the vaccine.

So even though I am heavily libertarian in my political philosophy I am not very sympathetic to the anti-vaxxers. I would change my mind if they had some reasonable evidence but at this point I don't think they do.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Jackson, I think I see this similarly to how you do, with the exception of being fearful of the precedent set.

Maybe all the vaccines out there now are perfectly safe. Maybe the government now can be trusted to commission, acquire, and distribute them, without covering up any major problems that could crop up.

Handing over the power to force people to inject things into their bodies might be a good idea. But how sure are we all those things will continue to be true forever?

It's similar to a test I try to run mentally for political proposals: if the "other guy" comes to be in charge and have this power, would I still support it? If the "other guy" were the one proposing it, what would my reaction be?

Actually, even now I'm not so sure that some significant problem in a vaccine wouldn't be covered up. I'm pretty sure it would be, as the "powers that be" seem to be absolutely addicted to vaccines. I'm not saying that vaccines aren't great, but I would bet that a lot would be covered up for the "greater good" of not discouraging people from getting vaccinated.

All that said, my kids certainly do get all their shots, and we're nervous around kids who haven't.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:00 am

In reference to the Darwin/Evolution comments above, this presentation "How Darwin Got It Wrong" by Dr. John Sanford* is something to consider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUss56QGhMI

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Sanford
The world removes God; the Word gives Christ.
The devil accuses us; the Word sustains faith.
Sin says live for self; the Word says live for others.

The right-hand statement gives fortification against the unholy trinity of the left-hand statement.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by sophie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 am

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:01 pm
ISo even though I am heavily libertarian in my political philosophy I am not very sympathetic to the anti-vaxxers. I would change my mind if they had some reasonable evidence but at this point I don't think they do.
Correct, they don't. Most of it's based on a 1998 paper that was retracted because of frankly made-up data. Since then, given the level of concern there have been a lot of serious investigations looking for a link between vaccines and things like autism. Absolutely nothing has turned up. Not to mention epidemiology studies looking at whether the incidence of autism has increased since the 1950s (it hasn't). The problem is that to a non-scientist, it's easy to blame a vaccine for something like autism that usually appears during the time that the child is getting their vaccines. And, to forget about what used to happen to kids before the vaccines were available (yes, even in the 1950s). Things like SSPE used to be common on pediatric neurology services before the MMR was made mandatory. I've never seen a case but we're all bracing ourselves for it because we know we will, probably soon.

I get what Xan is saying though, and it can feel like the vaccine schedule is a bit heavy handed. The real solution is to quit looking at pseudoscience websites and try for something like the CDC's page: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/index.html. Note especially the link to the web page listing vaccine side effects: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Believe it or not, the CDC is as reasonably honest as any human organization could be. The side effect listing is quite thorough and they're not trying to hide anything. It's easy to imagine the government as being naturally dishonest and fascist, but the antivaxxer groups aren't being terribly honest themselves.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:28 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:09 am
Correct, they don't. Most of it's based on a 1998 paper that was retracted because of frankly made-up data.
Surprise, surprise.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:29 am

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Handing over the power to force people to inject things into their bodies might be a good idea. But how sure are we all those things will continue to be true forever?

It's similar to a test I try to run mentally for political proposals: if the "other guy" comes to be in charge and have this power, would I still support it? If the "other guy" were the one proposing it, what would my reaction be?
Yes. One of the biggest reasons to limit government power.
Only a few prefer liberty-- the majority seek nothing more than fair masters.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by l82start » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:31 am

Sophie I posted this earlier in the discussion and it got passed by, I am curious what your opinion is
l82start wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:34 am
i am not anti vaccination but if I had kids (i don’t) I would be inclined to do some research and ask some questions before vaccinating a child, my uninformed hunch is that the cocktail method of vaccination is based on an irrational fear of needles or of crying children, as is the immunisation of infants, when i was vaccinated only one was done at an age where I was to young to remember, the rest were done in early childhood (grade school age). I would probably vaccinate against the common illnesses now due to the herd immunity thing, and the fact that getting these illnesses as an adult is dangerous, but I would be extremely wary of giving them to young children during critical growth/development ages, and of using all in one shots, again just a uninformed hunch but I suspect multiple shots spread out over years is a safer and more in tune with natural immunity development than what is common vaccination practice today...
what do you think about all in one shots, and immunising the newborn and young infants? no newborn or young infant has to develop immunity to all the bad child hood stuff at once in nature, a once every year or two exposure and immunity development as an older child seems a lot more in keeping with how nature spreads and builds resistance to disease
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:00 am

Two of my favorite "health experts" are Ben Greenfield and Chris Kresser. I use quotes because while they SEEM incredibly smart, I'm not smart enough to sort out fact from fiction. From what I can tell, I think they could out-debate 95% of "medical professionals" on the topics of general health, nutrition, etc, but this is only an impression I get. Both of these guys (I believe) have chosen to not vaccinate for measles, and they offer up what SEEM to be very informed, nuanced arguments for this.

Ben has a recent post on measles vaccines, and here's the book he links to as a great "source" on the matter.

https://www.amazon.com/Saying-No-Vaccin ... bengree-20

I don't have a horse in this race. I find it interesting but it's a rat's nest of nasty comments and accusations so hopefully we can keep it civil.
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