Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:55 am

If you think vaccinating against measles is controversial wait until this catches on....

According to this article, the gene-editing experiment conducted on a pair of twins in China was for the purpose of making them immune to the HIV virus. If they can do it for HIV, then you would think they could also do it for other diseases....

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6129 ... s-altered/
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:57 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
Brilliant points, Moda.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:07 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:28 am
dualstow wrote: Would anyone here selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today?
Me, my wife, and kids have never had a flu shot. Does that count?
Not really. It's recommended for the very young and very old, but so far it seems like a kind of an arbitrary thing. Let's reconvene if the flu wipes out a ton of people some winter.

Lots of good points being made on this page. Edit: oops, Previous Page.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:21 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
All true--and let's take it one step further: No matter how "vulnerable" you are, there is always going to be somebody more vulnerable than you. So wouldn't the prevailing logic argue in favor of requiring even "vulnerable" populations to submit to mandatory vaccination--adverse consequences be damned?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:06 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:21 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
All true--and let's take it one step further: No matter how "vulnerable" you are, there is always going to be somebody more vulnerable than you. So wouldn't the prevailing logic argue in favor of requiring even "vulnerable" populations to submit to mandatory vaccination--adverse consequences be damned?
I think some of the "statistical swordplay" involves the math around herd immunity, which is about (I believe) the non-linear relationship between the % of the society that is vaccinated and how "safe" the society is generally. I think the graph looks something like a much higher protection rate as you go from 50%-90% vaccinated, and low marginal herd immunity benefits on the 0-50% tail or that last 90%-100%. So it's not about always getting that next marginal person 100% protected, but making sure that you get to that ideal herd immunity number without killing "vulnerable" populations for little marginal herd immunity benefit.

IDK how to verbalize this stuff cuz I barely understand it myself.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:46 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:42 am
...l I'm hearing is the sound of rickets, so I believe there would not be too many takers (on opting out) if any. It's almost like the converse of the Prisoner's Dilemma.
I mean the sound of crickets. Darn. Really gotta fix that ipad.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:56 am

Unvaccinated French boy brings measles back to Costa Rica
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 973582002/
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm

Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:12 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm
Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
That's wonderful. He said sarcastically. Private thought police.

It seems fine until they decide to shut down discussion of something important because they don't like the direction it's headed.

As a maybe silly example, in terms of the HBPP, what if they decide that people who advocate holding physical gold are dangerous to a "fiat-currency-based free-market economy", and anybody who talks about it must be squelched?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:53 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:12 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm
Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
...

It seems fine until they decide to shut down discussion of something important because they don't like the direction it's headed.

As a maybe silly example, in terms of the HBPP, what if they decide that people who advocate holding physical gold are dangerous to a "fiat-currency-based free-market economy", and anybody who talks about it must be squelched?
I think there is no right or wrong answer here. While the squelching of information is usually a bad thing, in this case it is warranted in my opinion. The important thing is the transparency: facebook is publicly acknowledging what they are doing instead of secretly filtering.

There have been testimonials from people who had relatives that picked up the pseudo-scientific info (my own term, not the article's) from Facebook.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:28 pm

Facebook is a private company. They can do whatever they want. They are just shooting themselves in the foot in my opinion. People don't need or want grandma looking over their shoulder and warning them about which info isn't legit. Once enough people realize that Facebook is "censoring" information, they'll find an alternative and Facebook will go down the tubes. Remember Myspace?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:01 pm

Well, that’s your opinion. Which I respect, but it’s still an opinion. No one is forced to use Facebook, and I doubt their legalese guarantees free speech.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:23 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:02 pm
Twitter is notorious for censoring views that don't kowtow to the Liberal mantra. Gab was created as a censor-free alternative. But Twitter still rules the roost, by a huge margin.
Hmm, I can't imagine why. :P
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:41 pm

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons has just weighed in on the issue of mandatory vaccination and has voiced strong opposition to it. Interestingly, its letter to the relevant congressional committee is based, in large part, upon the Association's view that vaccinations entail a risk significant enough to outweigh whatever public health objectives mandatory vaccination may serve.

Some excerpts:
A public health threat is the rationale for the policy on mandatory vaccines. But how much of a threat is required to justify forcing people to accept government-imposed risks? Regulators may intervene to protect the public against a one-in-one million risk of a threat such as cancer from an involuntary exposure to a toxin, or-one-in 100,000 risk from a voluntary (e.g. occupational) exposure. What is the risk of death, cancer, or crippling complication from a vaccine? There are no rigorous safety studies of sufficient power to rule out a much higher risk of complications, even one in 10,000, for vaccines. Such studies would require an adequate number of subjects, a long duration (years, not days), an unvaccinated control group (“placebo” must be truly inactive such as saline, not the adjuvant or everything-but-the-intended-antigen), and consideration of all adverse health events (including neurodevelopment disorders).
Vaccines are necessarily risky, as recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court and by Congress. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid some $4 billion in damages, and high hurdles must be surmounted to collect compensation. The damage may be so devastating that most people would prefer restored function to a multimillion-dollar damage award.
Measles is the much-publicized threat used to push for mandates, and is probably the worst threat among the vaccine-preventable illnesses because it is so highly contagious. There are occasional outbreaks, generally starting with an infected individual coming from somewhere outside the U.S. The majority, but by no means all the people who catch the measles have not been vaccinated. Almost all make a full recovery, with robust, life-long immunity. The last measles death in the U.S. occurred in 2015, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Are potential measles complications including death in persons who cannot be vaccinated due to immune deficiency a justification for revoking the rights of all Americans and establishing a precedent for still greater restrictions on our right to give—or withhold—consent to medical interventions? Clearly not.

Many serious complications have followed MMR vaccination, and are listed in the manufacturers’ package insert, though a causal relationship may not have been proved. According to a 2012 report by the Cochrane Collaboration, “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and post-marketing, are largely inadequate” (cited by the National Vaccine Information Center).
There are many theoretical mechanisms for adverse effects from vaccines, especially in children with developing brains and immune systems. Note the devastating effects of Zika or rubella virus on developing humans, even though adults may have mild or asymptomatic infections. Many vaccines contain live viruses intended to cause a mild infection. Children’s brains are developing rapidly—any interference with the complex developmental symphony could be ruinous.

Vaccines are neither 100% safe nor 100% effective. Nor are they the only available means to control the spread of disease.
https://aapsonline.org/measles-outbreak ... e-mandates
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:19 am

I'd never heard of the AAPS nor its associated journal, so I did a little digging. It's a legit organization, but it is not (as its title implies) representative of "American physicians and surgeons". It's a bit like the National Enquirer for medicine. Like, what's in that quoted article. Even just in the excerpts that Maddy posted, there are several blatantly untrue statements.

BTW Maddy remember when you stepped on a nail or whatever it was, and decided not to get a tetanus shot? Check out this news item:

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/08/70155392 ... th-tetanus

This was the first tetanus case in Oregon "for decades", which given the non-vaccinated population in the state suggests that the risk of your getting tetanus is vanishingly low. Just be sure you know what symptoms to look for so you can get to an ER quickly...although to be honest, your chances of surviving a prolonged period on a vent will be low simply because of your age. On the other hand, getting the DPT shot every 10 years isn't a bad option either :-).
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:39 am

Ha. I saw that Tetanus story, too.

I think Xan’s right: I have a very small definition of’mandatory’. The government forcing people to get shots would be scary. At the same time, allowing unvaccinated kids to attend school en masse is scarier.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm

The word "mandatory" is definitely one of my least favorite words in the English language, but *some* vaccinations - NOT ALL - should be. Measles is the best example because it's the most easily communicable disease in existence, and it has a not insignificant fatality rate. I would agree that it doesn't make sense to argue that all vaccines are equally important from a public health perspective.

I do think that vaccines are victims of their own success though. Maybe it's good to go through occasional cycles of vaccine refusal & disease recurrence. There aren't enough disease outbreaks yet to make an impression, but just wait.

I also find it interesting that the same crowd who are dead set against vaccines because they supposedly damage the immune system by going directly into the bloodstream, are generally the same people who are into IV vitamin infusions.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:46 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm


I do think that vaccines are victims of their own success though. Maybe it's good to go through occasional cycles of vaccine refusal & disease recurrence.
How would that work? I mean, who’s going to sign up for that?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am

Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
“ICE health officials have been notified of 236 confirmed or probable cases of mumps among detainees in 51 facilities in the past 12 months, compared to no cases detected between January 2016 and February 2018. Last year, 423 detainees were determined to have influenza and 461 to have chicken pox.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/0 ... -diseases/

So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC and that causes people to be hypersensitive to the possibility that their recommendations speak more to the politics of the situation than anything else.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am
Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
...
So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC ...
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:38 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm
Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am
Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
...
So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC ...
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
God Dammit! I wrote a long reply to this post about how me and my wife, as well as our circle of friends who came here as LEGAL immigrants really feel about the "crisis" at our southern border. Unfortunately when I finally hit the submit button I discovered that I had spent too much time developing my thoughts and it all disappeared.

Maybe I will try again at some other time.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 pm

If that happens again, try the browser’s back button.It hasn’t always worked, but I’ve been able to recover posts in limbo sometimes.

Or better yet, if your post gets long, put it in a text file and paste it in later.
Make use of Preview once in a while, too.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:08 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
As with virtually every government agency that is no longer accountable to the people (and that is controlled by the same cast of characters that control everything else that matters), we can no longer trust that the CDC's policies have our best interests in mind or that the "facts" with which they deal are not just politically useful fictions. Specifically, we live in an era where radical egalitarianism prevails. To acknowledge that illegal immigrants from third world countries are largely responsible for the resurgence in childhood diseases and that there are other more logical ways of preventing their transmission (i.e., closing the southern border) is all but forbidden if you value your agency job. The more politically expedient path is to begin with the premise that everybody is equally likely to harbor disease and to end with the conclusion that everyone is equally responsible for preventing that by getting shot up--whether or not that actually makes sense. We've seen this song and dance before in a million different forms. For example, anybody who's ever worked around kids knows that socioeconomic factors (more directly, hygiene) is a pretty good predictor of who's going to have lice. But try finding anything but repudiation of that reality in any official public health publication. Same for the Gardasil and Hepatitis C debates. Everyone's equally at risk, or so they say. Unless and until the CDC is willing to call a spade a spade without sticking their finger in the air to see which way the social and political winds are blowing, I remain skeptical of everything they say.
Last edited by Maddy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:13 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 pm
If that happens again, try the browser’s back button.It hasn’t always worked, but I’ve been able to recover posts in limbo sometimes.

Or better yet, if your post gets long, put it in a text file and paste it in later.
Make use of Preview once in a while, too.
Dualstow, that happens to me all the time when I take too much time formulating my reply and, unbeknownst to me, the system has logged me out. Here's a trick: In order to avoid losing your work, immediately hit the "back" button to go back to the screen where you composed your reply, and make a copy of what you wrote. Then log back into the forum and paste your work into a new reply.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I just found the setting for how long sessions last; it was set to 2880 seconds (48 minutes). I've upped it to 2 hours.
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