Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:14 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:50 am
I thought 'measly' was the best word in that post.
ha

@Maddy, your well-written post deserves a response:
How many doctors have the time to pour through the multitude of peer reviewed studies in each of the fields that might possibly bear upon the advice they give to patients?
Fair enough. I guess they put their trust in institutions like the CDC, and bodies of researchers, not practicing physicians. But if that deflates my "overwhelming consensus", I understand.
And, finally, even the most intelligent, well-versed doctors often disagree when it comes to risk-to-benefit analyses. Take, for example, the hormone replacement therapy debate. The experts have gone back and forth on that how many times now?
All of science is replacing wrong with right as best we can. Luckily, children's health does not depend on how old a certain species of human is, or when it arrived in a particular location. (An example of something that changes every few years).

Bottom line is what MangoMan said. Public health. No matter what reservations or misgivings one may have about doctors, human limitations, imperfections, what we do know is that outbreaks like this happen when a critical mass goes unprotected. We hear from JacksonM, Xan, Stuper essentially the same chorus, I'm wary of this and that, but my kids are vaccinated because... Maybe there's someone out there I missed who doesn't vaccinate or is hesitant to say so.

Let's say this has been a debate about whether or not parents should be free to exempt their kids from vaccination and still send them to public school. Let's now say there are nationwide exemptions for everyone who wants, no questions asked. How many of you will opt out?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:16 am

All I'm saying is that I want the final decision to be in the parents' hands, not the government's. If they make it otherwise, then that's the last straw and I'm moving to Canada.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:23 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:16 am
All I'm saying is that I want the final decision to be in the parents' hands, not the government's. If they make it otherwise, then that's the last straw and I'm moving to Canada.
Understood, but if you could opt out freely and even anonymously, would you?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:45 am

I would have to do a bunch of research and make an educated decision based on all of the information that I could get. Would I do that? Probably not. I'm very lazy. My children are both teenagers and have had all their shots as have I.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:42 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:45 am
I would have to do a bunch of research and make an educated decision based on all of the information that I could get. Would I do that? Probably not. I'm very lazy. My children are both teenagers and have had all their shots as have I.
Well, it's clear that you were not lazy when it counted. I think you instinctually did the right thing, and not just because of outside pressure.

Aside from you, all I'm hearing is the sound of rickets, so I believe there would not be too many takers (on opting out) if any. It's almost like the converse of the Prisoner's Dilemma.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:24 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:14 am
Let's now say there are nationwide exemptions for everyone who wants, no questions asked. How many of you will opt out?
If posed as an all-or-nothing question, there probably won't be many takers.

A better question would be whether any one of us would selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:27 am

Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:24 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:14 am
Let's now say there are nationwide exemptions for everyone who wants, no questions asked. How many of you will opt out?
If posed as an all-or-nothing question, there probably won't be many takers.

A better question would be whether any one of us would selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today.
Would anyone here selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:27 am

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:07 am
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:16 am
All I'm saying is that I want the final decision to be in the parents' hands, not the government's. If they make it otherwise, then that's the last straw and I'm moving to Canada.
Last I checked, Canada is worse on that spectrum. Not sure where to go anymore.
Haha, I was making a joke. Or so I thought, but then I decided to check. Turns out Canada is just like the US and doesn't require vaccination explicitly, but school requirements make it common, although homeschooling is allowed (unlike say Germany).
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:28 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:27 am
Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:24 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:14 am
Let's now say there are nationwide exemptions for everyone who wants, no questions asked. How many of you will opt out?
If posed as an all-or-nothing question, there probably won't be many takers.

A better question would be whether any one of us would selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today.
Would anyone here selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today?
Me, my wife, and kids have never had a flu shot. Does that count?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:36 am

This is a complicated situation, because there are ethical issues that make it not just about rights of the individual.

1. Parents are making decisions that could affect the health of minor children. There is legal precedent for limiting parental autonomy in such cases. Example: Jehovah Witnesses can't bar their children from receiving blood transfusions in a life-threatening situation.

2. There are broader public health concerns, i.e. the parental decisions impact the heath of vulnerable individuals outside of their personal sphere. This is not so straightforward, but I expect if it comes down to a court battle, the same logic as #1 will apply. Consider the example of drunk driving, where the main issue isn't the drunk hurting himself/herself, but also passengers, other drivers & pedestrians.

So while I do try to understand parents' concerns, in the end I'm really not terribly sympathetic.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:44 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:36 am
This is a complicated situation, because there are ethical issues that make it not just about rights of the individual.

1. Parents are making decisions that could affect the health of minor children. There is legal precedent for limiting parental autonomy in such cases. Example: Jehovah Witnesses can't bar their children from receiving blood transfusions in a life-threatening situation.

2. There are broader public health concerns, i.e. the parental decisions impact the heath of vulnerable individuals outside of their personal sphere. This is not so straightforward, but I expect if it comes down to a court battle, the same logic as #1 will apply. Consider the example of drunk driving, where the main issue isn't the drunk hurting himself/herself, but also passengers, other drivers & pedestrians.

So while I do try to understand parents' concerns, in the end I'm really not terribly sympathetic.
Parent make decisions all the time that affect the health of their minor children, e.g., what to eat, how fast to drive, etc. Is Big Government going to micromanage every decision for me? Like I said, if that's the case, then just take them from me at birth and let me visit once in a while. If I do my research and believe that vaccinations are bad for my kids, then I want to have the right to make that decision. If I don't get that right, then I'm moving to some rural county in Montana (probably right next to Maddy) where the laws won't get enforced anyway and homeschooling them. Then, we'll all be happy, because my measly kids won't be infecting you.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:36 am
This is a complicated situation, because there are ethical issues that make it not just about rights of the individual.

1. Parents are making decisions that could affect the health of minor children. There is legal precedent for limiting parental autonomy in such cases. Example: Jehovah Witnesses can't bar their children from receiving blood transfusions in a life-threatening situation.

2. There are broader public health concerns, i.e. the parental decisions impact the heath of vulnerable individuals outside of their personal sphere. This is not so straightforward, but I expect if it comes down to a court battle, the same logic as #1 will apply. Consider the example of drunk driving, where the main issue isn't the drunk hurting himself/herself, but also passengers, other drivers & pedestrians.

So while I do try to understand parents' concerns, in the end I'm really not terribly sympathetic.
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:55 am

If you think vaccinating against measles is controversial wait until this catches on....

According to this article, the gene-editing experiment conducted on a pair of twins in China was for the purpose of making them immune to the HIV virus. If they can do it for HIV, then you would think they could also do it for other diseases....

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6129 ... s-altered/
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:57 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
Brilliant points, Moda.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:07 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:28 am
dualstow wrote: Would anyone here selectively opt out of one or more of the 40-something shots that are being pushed on kids today?
Me, my wife, and kids have never had a flu shot. Does that count?
Not really. It's recommended for the very young and very old, but so far it seems like a kind of an arbitrary thing. Let's reconvene if the flu wipes out a ton of people some winter.

Lots of good points being made on this page. Edit: oops, Previous Page.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:21 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
All true--and let's take it one step further: No matter how "vulnerable" you are, there is always going to be somebody more vulnerable than you. So wouldn't the prevailing logic argue in favor of requiring even "vulnerable" populations to submit to mandatory vaccination--adverse consequences be damned?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by moda0306 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:06 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:21 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:50 am
But if someone is vulnerable because they "can't" have the vaccine, and these are the people at risk, how are they any different than those who think they, too, are vulnerable and choose not to?

Not that I'd ever want to be the parent of a child with a weak immune system, but it's a bit rich for me to think MY child is special and shouldn't have to immunize, but that someone else who doesn't immunize is "the risk" to my kid.

What statistical threshold does one need to meet risk wise to legitimately object to vaccines? Who gets to draw that line, and why do we grant some "vulnerable" populations a pass while ridiculing others?? I'd imagine this is a statistical measure based on exposure type and severity and probability, but why aren't we talking about where these statistical lines are and whether to move them one direction or the other, especially if we're going to start putting a gun to people's heads?
All true--and let's take it one step further: No matter how "vulnerable" you are, there is always going to be somebody more vulnerable than you. So wouldn't the prevailing logic argue in favor of requiring even "vulnerable" populations to submit to mandatory vaccination--adverse consequences be damned?
I think some of the "statistical swordplay" involves the math around herd immunity, which is about (I believe) the non-linear relationship between the % of the society that is vaccinated and how "safe" the society is generally. I think the graph looks something like a much higher protection rate as you go from 50%-90% vaccinated, and low marginal herd immunity benefits on the 0-50% tail or that last 90%-100%. So it's not about always getting that next marginal person 100% protected, but making sure that you get to that ideal herd immunity number without killing "vulnerable" populations for little marginal herd immunity benefit.

IDK how to verbalize this stuff cuz I barely understand it myself.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:46 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:42 am
...l I'm hearing is the sound of rickets, so I believe there would not be too many takers (on opting out) if any. It's almost like the converse of the Prisoner's Dilemma.
I mean the sound of crickets. Darn. Really gotta fix that ipad.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:56 am

Unvaccinated French boy brings measles back to Costa Rica
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 973582002/
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm

Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:12 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm
Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
That's wonderful. He said sarcastically. Private thought police.

It seems fine until they decide to shut down discussion of something important because they don't like the direction it's headed.

As a maybe silly example, in terms of the HBPP, what if they decide that people who advocate holding physical gold are dangerous to a "fiat-currency-based free-market economy", and anybody who talks about it must be squelched?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:53 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:12 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm
Facebook is the next company to crack down on antivaccine posts.
...

It seems fine until they decide to shut down discussion of something important because they don't like the direction it's headed.

As a maybe silly example, in terms of the HBPP, what if they decide that people who advocate holding physical gold are dangerous to a "fiat-currency-based free-market economy", and anybody who talks about it must be squelched?
I think there is no right or wrong answer here. While the squelching of information is usually a bad thing, in this case it is warranted in my opinion. The important thing is the transparency: facebook is publicly acknowledging what they are doing instead of secretly filtering.

There have been testimonials from people who had relatives that picked up the pseudo-scientific info (my own term, not the article's) from Facebook.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by stuper1 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:28 pm

Facebook is a private company. They can do whatever they want. They are just shooting themselves in the foot in my opinion. People don't need or want grandma looking over their shoulder and warning them about which info isn't legit. Once enough people realize that Facebook is "censoring" information, they'll find an alternative and Facebook will go down the tubes. Remember Myspace?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:01 pm

Well, that’s your opinion. Which I respect, but it’s still an opinion. No one is forced to use Facebook, and I doubt their legalese guarantees free speech.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:23 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:02 pm
Twitter is notorious for censoring views that don't kowtow to the Liberal mantra. Gab was created as a censor-free alternative. But Twitter still rules the roost, by a huge margin.
Hmm, I can't imagine why. :P
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