Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm

The word "mandatory" is definitely one of my least favorite words in the English language, but *some* vaccinations - NOT ALL - should be. Measles is the best example because it's the most easily communicable disease in existence, and it has a not insignificant fatality rate. I would agree that it doesn't make sense to argue that all vaccines are equally important from a public health perspective.

I do think that vaccines are victims of their own success though. Maybe it's good to go through occasional cycles of vaccine refusal & disease recurrence. There aren't enough disease outbreaks yet to make an impression, but just wait.

I also find it interesting that the same crowd who are dead set against vaccines because they supposedly damage the immune system by going directly into the bloodstream, are generally the same people who are into IV vitamin infusions.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:46 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm


I do think that vaccines are victims of their own success though. Maybe it's good to go through occasional cycles of vaccine refusal & disease recurrence.
How would that work? I mean, who’s going to sign up for that?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am

Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
“ICE health officials have been notified of 236 confirmed or probable cases of mumps among detainees in 51 facilities in the past 12 months, compared to no cases detected between January 2016 and February 2018. Last year, 423 detainees were determined to have influenza and 461 to have chicken pox.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/0 ... -diseases/

So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC and that causes people to be hypersensitive to the possibility that their recommendations speak more to the politics of the situation than anything else.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am
Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
...
So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC ...
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by jacksonM » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:38 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm
Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 am
Well, here it is again: Transmissible illnesses are being reported as epidemic within the detained U.S. illegal immigrant population.
...
So long as this government is knowingly inviting these epidemics into the country, can you blame any parent who bridles against being asked to bear the risk--either of the vaccine, the adjuvants, or the disease itself? It's this kind of thing that absolutely destroys the credibility of the CDC ...
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
God Dammit! I wrote a long reply to this post about how me and my wife, as well as our circle of friends who came here as LEGAL immigrants really feel about the "crisis" at our southern border. Unfortunately when I finally hit the submit button I discovered that I had spent too much time developing my thoughts and it all disappeared.

Maybe I will try again at some other time.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 pm

If that happens again, try the browser’s back button.It hasn’t always worked, but I’ve been able to recover posts in limbo sometimes.

Or better yet, if your post gets long, put it in a text file and paste it in later.
Make use of Preview once in a while, too.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:08 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
As with virtually every government agency that is no longer accountable to the people (and that is controlled by the same cast of characters that control everything else that matters), we can no longer trust that the CDC's policies have our best interests in mind or that the "facts" with which they deal are not just politically useful fictions. Specifically, we live in an era where radical egalitarianism prevails. To acknowledge that illegal immigrants from third world countries are largely responsible for the resurgence in childhood diseases and that there are other more logical ways of preventing their transmission (i.e., closing the southern border) is all but forbidden if you value your agency job. The more politically expedient path is to begin with the premise that everybody is equally likely to harbor disease and to end with the conclusion that everyone is equally responsible for preventing that by getting shot up--whether or not that actually makes sense. We've seen this song and dance before in a million different forms. For example, anybody who's ever worked around kids knows that socioeconomic factors (more directly, hygiene) is a pretty good predictor of who's going to have lice. But try finding anything but repudiation of that reality in any official public health publication. Same for the Gardasil and Hepatitis C debates. Everyone's equally at risk, or so they say. Unless and until the CDC is willing to call a spade a spade without sticking their finger in the air to see which way the social and political winds are blowing, I remain skeptical of everything they say.
Last edited by Maddy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:13 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:57 pm
If that happens again, try the browser’s back button.It hasn’t always worked, but I’ve been able to recover posts in limbo sometimes.

Or better yet, if your post gets long, put it in a text file and paste it in later.
Make use of Preview once in a while, too.
Dualstow, that happens to me all the time when I take too much time formulating my reply and, unbeknownst to me, the system has logged me out. Here's a trick: In order to avoid losing your work, immediately hit the "back" button to go back to the screen where you composed your reply, and make a copy of what you wrote. Then log back into the forum and paste your work into a new reply.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Xan » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I just found the setting for how long sessions last; it was set to 2880 seconds (48 minutes). I've upped it to 2 hours.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:08 pm
dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 pm
I understand the unfairness of it, but why does it destroy the CDC's credibility?
As with virtually every government agency that is no longer accountable to the people (and that is controlled by the same cast of characters that control everything else that matters), we can no longer trust that the CDC's policies have our best interests in mind or that the "facts" with which they deal are not just politically useful fictions. Specifically, we live in an era where radical egalitarianism prevails. To acknowledge that illegal immigrants from third world countries are largely responsible for the resurgence in childhood diseases and that there are other more logical ways of preventing their transmission (i.e., closing the southern border) is all but forbidden if you value your agency job. The more politically expedient path is to begin with the premise that everybody is equally likely to harbor disease and to end with the conclusion that everyone is equally responsible for preventing that by getting shot up--whether or not that actually makes sense. We've seen this song and dance before in a million different forms. For example, anybody who's ever worked around kids knows that socioeconomic factors (more directly, hygiene) is a pretty good predictor of who's going to have lice. But try finding anything but repudiation of that reality in any official public health publication. Same for the Gardasil and Hepatitis C debates. Everyone's equally at risk, or so they say. Unless and until the CDC is willing to call a spade a spade without sticking their finger in the air to see which way the social and political winds are blowing, I remain skeptical of everything they say.
I still don't see how the CDC has done anything worthy of this critique. Their website clearly reports that measles outbreaks typically start with international visitors, so Congress (who has the responsibility for dealing with illegal immigration) is informed about it. Be aware, though, that many of those virus-carrying foreign visitors are here legally, so you wouldn't stop the outbreaks by controlling illegal immigration. Anyway, immigration policy is beyond CDC's responsibility. You should properly be complaining about Congress.

Also, we have this thing in medicine called "risk factors", based on the reality that we are NOT all equally likely to get a particular condition or disease. And, we're not shy about noting things like race, gender, country of origin, habits, socioeconomic status etc where applicable. Low socioeconomic status is a well known risk factor for lice, although you'd be surprised how often upper middle class citizen families get hit with it. For measles, the main risk factors are recent travel to an endemic area, or contact with someone from such an area, AND not being vaccinated. So what's your point here?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:39 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
So what's your point here?
Simply that if the CDC wants to be regarded as credible, it can't involve itself in the politicization of disease.

WiseOne, you clearly regard the CDC as open and honest, but that's not necessarily the public perception. Think back to the AIDS crisis of the '80s when public health officials went out of their way to downplay the obvious causal connection between the disease and certain high-risk sexual practices--and promoting the idea of "safe" high-risk sex instead of coming right out and saying if you do this stuff you've got a good chance of dying. That's just one example. The CDC has been at the center of a number of hotly politicized public health issues, and by all appearances its policies have been swayed by the same influences as other public officials.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:49 am

Maddy wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:39 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
So what's your point here?
Simply that if the CDC wants to be regarded as credible, it can't involve itself in the politicization of disease.

WiseOne, you clearly regard the CDC as open and honest, but that's not necessarily the public perception. Think back to the AIDS crisis of the '80s when public health officials went out of their way to downplay the obvious causal connection between the disease and certain high-risk sexual practices--and promoting the idea of "safe" high-risk sex instead of coming right out and saying if you do this stuff you've got a good chance of dying. That's just one example. The CDC has been at the center of a number of hotly politicized public health issues, and by all appearances its policies have been swayed by the same influences as other public officials.
The CDC did its job during the AIDs epidemic, and did it reasonably well under difficult circumstances. They were in part muzzled by the Reagan administration, which regarded AIDs as a disease specific to undesirable groups (gays, IV drug users, prostitutes) and therefore not something they wanted to spend money on or talk about. The CDC's budget was cut, and some things they wanted to say (e.g. use condoms) was actively suppressed. I think you're also confusing the CDC with the FDA, which holds much of the power that you're ascribing to the CDC. The FDA deserves to be embarrassed by their behavior during the epidemic, e.g. refusing to take steps to reduce risk of HIV in banked blood products which one could argue rose to the level of criminal negligence. That's because the FDA is essentially a revolving door with the health industry, resulting in massive conflicts of interest. The CDC doesn't have those issues. But, they also don't have a lot of political power. Perhaps they'd be more effective if they did.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by Maddy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:23 am

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:49 am
The CDC did its job during the AIDs epidemic, and did it reasonably well under difficult circumstances. They were in part muzzled by the Reagan administration, which regarded AIDs as a disease specific to undesirable groups (gays, IV drug users, prostitutes) and therefore not something they wanted to spend money on or talk about.
Well in the early eighties, when the AIDS epidemic was first getting started, it WAS a disease specific to gays, IV drug users and prostitutes. I was working in a research lab at the time, and a friend from the epidemiology division was talking about this strange new phenomenon known as Kaposi's sarcoma which was being seen with increasing frequency in the male homosexual population. It was not too long after that, after I had gone to work for a company specializing in ELISA technologies, that the discussion came to center around around a retrovirus then known as HTLV-3. If there was any "muzzling" going on, it was the walking on eggshells that accompanied the realization that you couldn't speak frankly about how this disease was being transmitted without being viewed as "homophobic" by the gay lobby and its progressive allies, which at the time were creating quite a ruckus over anything that might remotely suggest that homosexual sex might have consequences. (Anyone remember ACT-UP and its hijacking of official meetings by jumping on top of conference tables and screaming at the top of their lungs?)
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by ochotona » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:05 pm

Please oppose anti-vaccination bills, like HB 4274, HB 3884, SB 2350


Dear Representative Rosenthal,

These bills are crazy. They endanger the public health by encouraging more people to become unvaccinated. Americans have forgotten how dangerous infectious diseases are because decades of vaccination has created complacency.

I had an aunt who died as a child in China of preventable infectious disease. She died decades before I was born. The good side of the story is that her death stirred my Mother to become a Physician, which she did her whole entire career.

There is junk science linking vaccination to autism, which is 100% untrue. It's social media echo chamber fake news.

Thank you for representing me in the Texas House of Representatives.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by WiseOne » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:24 pm

A state alert that appeared in my inbox today, with some useful information:
As of April 23, 2019, a total of 390 individuals with measles have been reported to the New York City (NYC) Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) since October 2018. All but twelve of these individuals with measles are members of the Orthodox Jewish communities of Williamsburg (323, 83%) and Borough Park (55, 14%). A small number of cases have occurred outside of the Williamsburg and Borough Park neighborhoods at the core of the current outbreak. These cases have been diagnosed in residents of Midwood/Marine Park (4), Brighton Beach (2), Flushing (2), Cro wn Heights (1), Bensonhurst (1), Far Rockaway (1) and the Hunts Point, Longwood and Melrose section of the Bronx (1). Seven individuals who do not identify as members of the Orthodox Jewish community have been diagnosed with measles since the outbreak began in October 2018. All but one of these individuals were exposed to the measles outbreak occurring in Williamsburg or Borough Park. The vast majority of individuals diagnosed with measles have been children (330, 85%), of whom 304 (92%) were unvaccinated. A total of 60 cases have occurred among adults, of whom 43 (72%) were either unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Eight individuals, including the initial case, acquired measles while travelling abroad to Israel (5), the United Kingdom (2) and Ukraine (1), areas with active outbreaks, highlighting the need for MMR vaccination for individuals traveling overseas. Twenty-nine individuals have been hospitalized, including six in the intensive care unit. Serious complications include 17 individuals with pneumonia. Over 13,000 people have been identified as exposed to measles in NYC. In addition to an outbreak of measles in Brooklyn, outbreaks of measles have occurred in Rockland, Orange and Westchester counties in New York State and in other parts of the United States.
I got an MMR booster when I started working here, but I bet at my next medical review they'll do it again, if not sooner.

Ochotona did you get any response to your letter?
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by ochotona » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:45 pm

Yes, my State Rep is going to back the bill. He's worried about public health and junk science generally.
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Re: Major Measels Outbreak Fearred in Washington State (anti-vaxxers)

Post by dualstow » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:24 pm
A state alert that appeared in my inbox today, with some useful information:
. All but twelve of these individuals with measles are members of the Orthodox Jewish communities of ...
I got an MMR booster when I started working here, but I bet at my next medical review they'll do it again, if not sooner.
I saw that on the news several times. So embarrassing. :-[ Kelly Evans of cnbc said she went to school in Rockland(?) County, but won’t return for ten years because of this BS. I wouldn’t either.

Didn’t they implement a $1,000 fine or something?
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