Oxycontin

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sweetbthescrivener
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:11 pm

I had a somewhat hellacious fall in December of last year, but no broken bones, very limited movement in my arm, and tons of pain if I moved it out of a very narrow window of motion.

I could handle the pain and was mostly relieved nothing was broken, though it was hard to find a a good sleeping position so I asked the emergency room doc if I could have some higher dose ibuprofen in case I needed it.

She came in after the X Rays, said nothing was broken and left, and the nurse told me the doctor had prescribed 5 days of Hydrocodone for me, which seemed odd at the time, and made me wonder if it was just what they did automatically for pain.

With the opioid crisis so much in the news, I was both relieved about pain relief and feeling some trepidation at all the stories we hear all the time.

But I figured ten pills couldn't get me in trouble so I took them before bed or if I was getting a bunch of pain during the day.

What I noticed on the first day was that they didn't really make the pain go away, they just made me feel pretty good until they wore off. It wasn't the messy pretty good feeling of having some drinks, it was a very clean but weird feeling. I guess I can say it felt medicinal or chemical, and unnatural.

It was kind of like a first cigarette, where the good feeling was weighed against the chemical/unnatural feeling (Hard to describe. Like the difference between taking mushrooms and taking LSD. The pain pills felt somehow accelerated or unnatural, like LSD rather than the mellower mushrooms) and then there was a letdown phase of poor energy when the effects faded, so, like that first cigarette, there were positives and negatives, but no real reason to continue.

Taking it a few nights in a row, it was a comfort to know that I could roll on my side in the middle of the night without waking up feeling like Charles Barkley had hauled off and given me a charley horse in the middle of the night.

Took them for most of the early days too though, and what started off as weird was normal pretty soon, and ultimately, who wouldn't want a pill that side stepped anxiety, depression, worry and just made you feel 'all right' without any observable loss of cognition or motor skills?

(Unless like a lot of us, you are also aware of tolerance and declining potency of the drug, not to mention physical dependence. Besides those two, it was a pretty spiffy little pill to take, and it is not surprising that people, especially the frustrated or depressed, take to it pretty quickly.)

My experiment ended after 7 days and to be honest, I missed it on the 8th and 9th day, and if someone had offered me one, I would at very least been tempted to toss it down my throat.

An enlightening and a little scary experiment all things considered. Talked about it with my therapist and he said that for some people, five days, ten pills that is, is enough to get them hooked and he has seen it in his own practice.

Despite the fact that on the 8th day, another little pill was a mild temptation, the mental image of becoming a burglar and fencing hot tvs and computers in exchange for pills was a much more vivid and stark image, and ultimately it was no contest.

Still, it made me understand and have some compassion for people who get sucked into this life, and that aspect was at least worthwhile, although next time I will insist on the ibuprofen or nothing at all.

I found it very odd that the emergency doc automatically prescribed it when I had asked for something else and that all she and the pharmacist seemed concerned about was that I wouldn't operate heavy machinery.

Cool if you get addicted, but not if you are stocking Amazon shelves.

Man, I wonder how many pills I could have got if I had jacked a forklift and gave it to the dude on the corner.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:06 pm

sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:11 pm
I had a somewhat hellacious fall in December of last year, but no broken bones, very limited movement in my arm, and tons of pain if I moved it out of a very narrow window of motion.

I could handle the pain and was mostly relieved nothing was broken, though it was hard to find a a good sleeping position so I asked the emergency room doc if I could have some higher dose ibuprofen in case I needed it.

She came in after the X Rays, said nothing was broken and left, and the nurse told me the doctor had prescribed 5 days of Hydrocodone for me, which seemed odd at the time, and made me wonder if it was just what they did automatically for pain.

With the opioid crisis so much in the news, I was both relieved about pain relief and feeling some trepidation at all the stories we hear all the time.

But I figured ten pills couldn't get me in trouble so I took them before bed or if I was getting a bunch of pain during the day.

What I noticed on the first day was that they didn't really make the pain go away, they just made me feel pretty good until they wore off. It wasn't the messy pretty good feeling of having some drinks, it was a very clean but weird feeling. I guess I can say it felt medicinal or chemical, and unnatural.

It was kind of like a first cigarette, where the good feeling was weighed against the chemical/unnatural feeling (Hard to describe. Like the difference between taking mushrooms and taking LSD. The pain pills felt somehow accelerated or unnatural, like LSD rather than the mellower mushrooms) and then there was a letdown phase of poor energy when the effects faded, so, like that first cigarette, there were positives and negatives, but no real reason to continue.

Taking it a few nights in a row, it was a comfort to know that I could roll on my side in the middle of the night without waking up feeling like Charles Barkley had hauled off and given me a charley horse in the middle of the night.

Took them for most of the early days too though, and what started off as weird was normal pretty soon, and ultimately, who wouldn't want a pill that side stepped anxiety, depression, worry and just made you feel 'all right' without any observable loss of cognition or motor skills?

(Unless like a lot of us, you are also aware of tolerance and declining potency of the drug, not to mention physical dependence. Besides those two, it was a pretty spiffy little pill to take, and it is not surprising that people, especially the frustrated or depressed, take to it pretty quickly.)

My experiment ended after 7 days and to be honest, I missed it on the 8th and 9th day, and if someone had offered me one, I would at very least been tempted to toss it down my throat.

An enlightening and a little scary experiment all things considered. Talked about it with my therapist and he said that for some people, five days, ten pills that is, is enough to get them hooked and he has seen it in his own practice.

Despite the fact that on the 8th day, another little pill was a mild temptation, the mental image of becoming a burglar and fencing hot tvs and computers in exchange for pills was a much more vivid and stark image, and ultimately it was no contest.

Still, it made me understand and have some compassion for people who get sucked into this life, and that aspect was at least worthwhile, although next time I will insist on the ibuprofen or nothing at all.

I found it very odd that the emergency doc automatically prescribed it when I had asked for something else and that all she and the pharmacist seemed concerned about was that I wouldn't operate heavy machinery.

Cool if you get addicted, but not if you are stocking Amazon shelves.

Man, I wonder how many pills I could have got if I had jacked a forklift and gave it to the dude on the corner.
I have been prescribed hydrocodone a number of times and have taken it as needed. I haven't felt any desire to continue after the pain was more tolerable.

I don't seem to be an addiction-prone type, but of course I know I'm not necessarily representative of the general public.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by jacksonM » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:29 pm

I see some evidence of an addictive personality in myself. When I find a song I really like I will sometimes find myself playing it over and over again to keep the feeling going. Also, I have a hard time keeping a six-pack of beer in the refrigerator with the intention of having it last for several days. It's almost always gone the same night. I also posted something along these lines over on the religion thread.

I think this is probably different than people dealing with serious addiction problems however. That PBS documentary showed me that to them it's not so much enjoying the high as it is needing it. Most of them had low levels of dopamine to begin with so it becomes a choice between feeling good or feeling horrible all the time. I've never had a long lasting episode of depression but I've felt it enough on occasion, as we probably all have, to understand what they are probably dealing with.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by boglerdude » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:38 am

Low dopamine folks will do anything to feel normal/good and you cant "blame" them. Drugs, gambling...most of society's bad behaviors
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:11 pm
A witness has testified that an ex-stripper-turned-drug company executive gave a doctor a lap dance as part of a sales pitch for an addictive fentanyl spray.

Holly Brown, a former sales representative at Insys Therapeutics, said in federal court on Tuesday that her then-boss, Sunrise Lee, had been rewarding the Illinois doctor, identified as Paul Madison, who received the alleged dance for prescribing the powerful product to patients and paying him to speak at events, Reuters reported. link
Heh.
Ms. Napier, 26, was a star cheerleader on the national-champion University of Kentucky squad, which has been a springboard for many careers in pharmaceutical sales. She now plies doctors' offices selling the antacid Prevacid for TAP Pharmaceutical Products.

Ms. Napier says the skills she honed performing for thousands of fans helped land her job. "I would think, essentially, that cheerleaders make good sales people," she said.

Anyone who has seen the parade of sales representatives through a doctor's waiting room has probably noticed that they are frequently female and invariably good looking. Less recognized is the fact that a good many are recruited from the cheerleading ranks.

Known for their athleticism, postage-stamp skirts and persuasive enthusiasm, cheerleaders have many qualities the drug industry looks for in its sales force. link
I worked in a company that hired 98% (estimated) attractive females, it was cool. Not sure it was an industry specification though.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by ochotona » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:59 pm

Oxycontin exists because the profit margin is much higher for a proprietary molecule rather than just plain old codeine. Or plain old insulin. Whatever. They make up these new compounds which are knock-offs of the old ones, or insert one tiny twist in the IP (like a new dispenser... my wife's asthma inhaler went from a few dollars to a few hundred dollars, same molecule, can't buy the old dispenser in Amerikka), buy out and suppress the old generics, and then hold the knife to the public's throat. Literally, Pay my toll or die, bitch.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by sophie » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:15 am

Sweetb, that's a very sobering story. I think most of us would figure that 5 days of an opioid is too short a time to trigger a withdrawal response.

Obviously your brief story as posted is not enough to judge what happened at the ER, but I will just say that first line pain medication for that situation is round the clock Advil/Motrin/ibuprofen (800 every 8 hours, or 600 every 6 hours), plus you can add Tylenol if needed. Assuming no contraindications to these meds of course. It really works when you take it on schedule and not just intermittently. If something like that ever happens to you again you might consider trying that, and keeping the opioid script in your back pocket to use if you need it. Caution: If the opioid contains acetaminophen or ibuprofen, like Percocet or Vicodin, be careful not to accidentally double up on those.

I don't suppose the ER doc suggested ice and recommended followup, in case you needed physical therapy?
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by jacksonM » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:43 am

An excellent article by an MD who seems to really understand what's behind the opioid OD crisis. Hint - it's not over-prescription by MD's or pharmaceutical companies turning into drug pushers. It's prohibition.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... oblem.html
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by pugchief » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:20 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:43 am
An excellent article by an MD who seems to really understand what's behind the opioid OD crisis. Hint - it's not over-prescription by MD's or pharmaceutical companies turning into drug pushers. It's prohibition.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... oblem.html
That was a great article!
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by jacksonM » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:35 pm

pugchief wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:20 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:43 am
An excellent article by an MD who seems to really understand what's behind the opioid OD crisis. Hint - it's not over-prescription by MD's or pharmaceutical companies turning into drug pushers. It's prohibition.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... oblem.html
That was a great article!
It was really thought provoking when he pointed out that nobody had ever overdosed from those morphine things they give you in the hospital after surgery where you can give yourself as much as you want.

If I understood him correctly, the OD's are mostly the result of people taking powerful illegal drugs laced with fentanyl for which they have not allowed their bodies to build up a tolerance.

Reminded me a little of the stories of alcohol being intentionally poisoned during prohibition which contributed to a lot of deaths among alcoholics. Only this time the government isn't actively doing the poisoning. They are just allowing drug dealers to do it for them.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by sophie » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:57 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:35 pm
pugchief wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:20 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:43 am
An excellent article by an MD who seems to really understand what's behind the opioid OD crisis. Hint - it's not over-prescription by MD's or pharmaceutical companies turning into drug pushers. It's prohibition.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... oblem.html
That was a great article!
It was really thought provoking when he pointed out that nobody had ever overdosed from those morphine things they give you in the hospital after surgery where you can give yourself as much as you want.

If I understood him correctly, the OD's are mostly the result of people taking powerful illegal drugs laced with fentanyl for which they have not allowed their bodies to build up a tolerance.

Reminded me a little of the stories of alcohol being intentionally poisoned during prohibition which contributed to a lot of deaths among alcoholics. Only this time the government isn't actively doing the poisoning. They are just allowing drug dealers to do it for them.
The overall point about prohibition is a good one, but I just couldn't resist mentioning that there's apparently something the author doesn't know about PCA (patient controlled analgesia): yes you can give yourself tiny doses of morphine when you want it, but there is a built-in limit so you can't give yourself more than a set maximum per hour. Do you really think a a hospital in our litigious society would hand you a clicker that could injure or kill you if you hit it too many times?

Interestingly, one reason that everyone likes PCA pumps is that patients end up getting less morphine with one of those than when they're on a traditional prn schedule where they have to ask a nurse for a dose. It's about the patient having complete control.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by jacksonM » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:10 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:57 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:35 pm
pugchief wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:20 pm


That was a great article!
It was really thought provoking when he pointed out that nobody had ever overdosed from those morphine things they give you in the hospital after surgery where you can give yourself as much as you want.

If I understood him correctly, the OD's are mostly the result of people taking powerful illegal drugs laced with fentanyl for which they have not allowed their bodies to build up a tolerance.

Reminded me a little of the stories of alcohol being intentionally poisoned during prohibition which contributed to a lot of deaths among alcoholics. Only this time the government isn't actively doing the poisoning. They are just allowing drug dealers to do it for them.
The overall point about prohibition is a good one, but I just couldn't resist mentioning that there's apparently something the author doesn't know about PCA (patient controlled analgesia): yes you can give yourself tiny doses of morphine when you want it, but there is a built-in limit so you can't give yourself more than a set maximum per hour. Do you really think a a hospital in our litigious society would hand you a clicker that could injure or kill you if you hit it too many times?

Interestingly, one reason that everyone likes PCA pumps is that patients end up getting less morphine with one of those than when they're on a traditional prn schedule where they have to ask a nurse for a dose. It's about the patient having complete control.
I think your last sentence was the salient point of the article. If people could get the drugs or whatever it is they need to cope without it is they are coping with then they wouldn't have to resort to buying illegal and unsafe drugs in desperation.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm

Lawsuit time.
RIP Dusty Hill and be well, Bob Odenkirk
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by pugchief » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:23 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Lawsuit time.
Another money grab by politicians, IMHO. Not the mfg's fault if people abuse their legal products.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm

pugchief wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:23 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Lawsuit time.
Another money grab by politicians, IMHO. Not the mfg's fault if people abuse their legal products.
Legal, yes, but aggressively marketed without significant warnings about the risk of addiction.
RIP Dusty Hill and be well, Bob Odenkirk
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:13 pm

Dozens of medical professionals in seven states were charged Wednesday with participating in the illegal prescribing of more than 32 million pain pills, including doctors who prosecutors said traded sex for prescriptions and a dentist who unnecessarily pulled teeth from patients to justify giving them opioids.

The 60 people indicted include 31 doctors, seven pharmacists, eight nurse practitioners and seven other licensed medical professionals. The charges stem from the government’s largest prescription-opioid takedown. It involves more than 350,000 illegal prescriptions written in Alabama, Kentucky, Louisiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and West Virginia, according to indictments unsealed in federal court in Cincinnati.

“That is the equivalent of one opioid dose for every man, woman and child” in the region, Brian Benczkowski, an assistant attorney general in charge of the Justice Department’s criminal division, said in an interview. “If these medical professionals behave like drug dealers, you can rest assured that the Justice Department is going to treat them like drug dealers.”

link
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by Maddy » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:16 pm

Who are these "medical professionals?" How, in this day and age of computerized-everything, does this kind of prescribing pattern go unnoticed? Who in their right mind spends $200,000 for a medical degree and then risks everything? Who are these peoples' professional peers, and why aren't they speaking up? Cartels bringing in boatloads of heroin I get, but this kind of thing leaves me confused.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by boglerdude » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:37 am

Maybe they're libertarian? Who are you tell an adult he cant get high
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by sophie » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:19 am

Maddy wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:16 pm
Who are these "medical professionals?" How, in this day and age of computerized-everything, does this kind of prescribing pattern go unnoticed? Who in their right mind spends $200,000 for a medical degree and then risks everything? Who are these peoples' professional peers, and why aren't they speaking up? Cartels bringing in boatloads of heroin I get, but this kind of thing leaves me confused.
Excellent question. You have to be several kinds of stupid not to know that Big Brother is watching you, via pharmacy records and your DEA number. Unfortunately, it's not hard for a person with below average smarts and above average greed to get through medical training. Just go to a foreign medical school that's easy to get into, like Grenada, and get a residency spot in a noncompetitive field where the slots don't fill up (e.g. primary care in an out of the way location). It's even easier for a nurse practitioner, about 5 years less training and they never have to do overnight calls.

However, it's interesting how they're talking about this as an "epidemic" with implication that there is no voluntary act involved on the part of patients. Has no one considered that Appalachia also has high/increasing depression & suicide rates, and that this is part and parcel of the same phenomenon? For example:
Prosecutors also documented how patients traveled to multiple states to see different doctors so they could collect and then fill numerous prescriptions.
This is common, and there is no mechanism out there to alert physicians to this behavior. This might have been one of the benefits of a national EHR system, if the Obama administration had done it right instead of royally screwing things up.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by jacksonM » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:31 am

Maddy wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:16 pm
Who are these "medical professionals?" How, in this day and age of computerized-everything, does this kind of prescribing pattern go unnoticed? Who in their right mind spends $200,000 for a medical degree and then risks everything? Who are these peoples' professional peers, and why aren't they speaking up? Cartels bringing in boatloads of heroin I get, but this kind of thing leaves me confused.
Back in my younger days there was an elderly doctor who was known for handing out prescriptions to anyone who asked and if you didn't have any money he didn't even ask you to pay. It wasn't oxycontin that people were mostly in search of back then but "downers" were all the rage. I think they called them "sobers". You had to take the prescription and shop it around a bit however, because many of the pharmacists wouldn't fill it.

I went to see him with a couple of friends who were also "patients" and we all sat in his office and sang together. I think he was as high as a kite himself. My impression was that he was just a lonely old man who enjoyed the company.

Unfortunately, he eventually got busted but I don't think he went to jail (at least I hope not). Just lost his license. Everybody complained about too many people spoiling a good thing by not keeping it a secret.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by dualstow » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:57 am

Good times.
RIP Dusty Hill and be well, Bob Odenkirk
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by pugchief » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:38 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:19 am
This might have been one of the benefits of a national EHR system, if the Obama administration had done it right instead of royally screwing things up.
LOL, aren't you in favor of some version of government run medicare for all? Why on earth would that not be yet another clusterf*ck? What are the chances a bunch of politicians, who know nothing about healthcare, don't make the problem worse, especially when you have people like AOC trying to control everything?
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by sophie » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:13 am

pugchief wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:38 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:19 am
This might have been one of the benefits of a national EHR system, if the Obama administration had done it right instead of royally screwing things up.
LOL, aren't you in favor of some version of government run medicare for all? Why on earth would that not be yet another clusterf*ck? What are the chances a bunch of politicians, who know nothing about healthcare, don't make the problem worse, especially when you have people like AOC trying to control everything?
Point taken :-)

Except the private insurance companies are making a complete hash of things already. I fundamentally question the role of private insurance companies in catastrophic (not routine) health care, because there is a glaring conflict of interest involved. I think it's a safe bet that Medicare for all in that realm would be better. Medicare & Medicaid already cover the majority of high-cost/catastrophic health care anyway (about 2/3 of it). Not to say that stupid things don't happen, but it's probably not worth trying to optimize those away.

For routine health care though, I'm with you on that. Any form of insurance, whether public or private, makes zero sense, increases costs and headaches beyond belief, and prevents the kind of innovative strategies that we are seeing getting layered on to the existing system.
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:32 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:55 pm
The war on drugs is over.
Drugs won.

Time to declare defeat and get out.
The way I am leaning....

Vinny
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Re: Oxycontin

Post by Maddy » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:26 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:23 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Lawsuit time.
Another money grab by politicians, IMHO. Not the mfg's fault if people abuse their legal products.
Legal, yes, but aggressively marketed without significant warnings about the risk of addiction.
Who doesn't know that these drugs are addictive? Who isn't able to discern this risk for him or herself?

I've heard a lot lately about people being given a modest number of opiate pain killers post-surgery or in some other kind of transient pain situation, and--POOF!--turning into a stark raving addicts. Mild dependence--the kind that might reasonably occur after short-term use--does not create an addict in the sense of rendering a person helpless to overcome his or her insatiable need for the drug. Mild withdrawal symptoms, sure, but conflating that with full-blown addiction in order to bolster the argument for draconian regulation (e.g., denying cancer patients reasonable pain control) is just plain wrong.
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