Krugman on taxes

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sophie
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by sophie » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:37 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm
My comment was a red herring to the argument about welfare rights of immigrants. However it was very pertinent to the tax discussion, which was where we started this discussion in the first place. I made that clear. Or at least I thought I did.

As to whether illegal immigrants have rights to "ask for" handouts. Well of course they do. But I think you meant "receive handouts from government." I'd say it's a stretch for them to have a "right" to government handouts, if you mean rights in a natural/moral (rather than legal) sense. But in a natural/moral sense I question whether anyone has a "right" to government handouts. And someone's willingness to accept government handouts probably doesn't give me the "right" to restrict their travel.
It is pertinent, indeed. Given the rate of illegal immigration and their sheer numbers here, the burden they impose on the rest of us is substantial. If you take the Heritage Foundation's estimate of $7,000 per immigrant per year net cost (counting federal, state, local, and private direct costs, net of taxes paid by the illegal immigrants) and multiply that by the 22M estimated illegal immigrant population, you get an annual burden of $154 billion. Which btw doesn't count their children born on US soil who get to claim citizenship, or the relatives brought in as a result, due to the "chain migration" policy. These means that well over 10%, possibly 20% of the current resident US population is either here illegally, or as a result of illegal immigration. It sounds shocking but it's entirely consistent with what I see every day.

The arguments about these immigrants having a natural "right to travel" are an example of a theoretical belief taken to ridiculous extremes. Moda, do you lock your front door? If so, you do realize that you're restricting others' "right to travel" into your house. Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument could be used to support a ban on all locks that restrict people from entering any area, whether public or private. So what if people then start robbing you blind? They're doing that anyway, and you & half the country don't seem to mind.
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moda0306
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:31 pm

sophie wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:37 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm
My comment was a red herring to the argument about welfare rights of immigrants. However it was very pertinent to the tax discussion, which was where we started this discussion in the first place. I made that clear. Or at least I thought I did.

As to whether illegal immigrants have rights to "ask for" handouts. Well of course they do. But I think you meant "receive handouts from government." I'd say it's a stretch for them to have a "right" to government handouts, if you mean rights in a natural/moral (rather than legal) sense. But in a natural/moral sense I question whether anyone has a "right" to government handouts. And someone's willingness to accept government handouts probably doesn't give me the "right" to restrict their travel.
It is pertinent, indeed. Given the rate of illegal immigration and their sheer numbers here, the burden they impose on the rest of us is substantial. If you take the Heritage Foundation's estimate of $7,000 per immigrant per year net cost (counting federal, state, local, and private direct costs, net of taxes paid by the illegal immigrants) and multiply that by the 22M estimated illegal immigrant population, you get an annual burden of $154 billion. Which btw doesn't count their children born on US soil who get to claim citizenship, or the relatives brought in as a result, due to the "chain migration" policy. These means that well over 10%, possibly 20% of the current resident US population is either here illegally, or as a result of illegal immigration. It sounds shocking but it's entirely consistent with what I see every day.

The arguments about these immigrants having a natural "right to travel" are an example of a theoretical belief taken to ridiculous extremes. Moda, do you lock your front door? If so, you do realize that you're restricting others' "right to travel" into your house. Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument could be used to support a ban on all locks that restrict people from entering any area, whether public or private. So what if people then start robbing you blind? They're doing that anyway, and you & half the country don't seem to mind.
I do lock my front door. Mostly for the personal financial & personal safety risk benefit, as anyone breaking into an apartment doesn't have the best intentions. I don't think that same logic applies to the hundreds of millions of acres of the southwest United States as a whole. Maybe individual apartments, plots of land, etc. But not the whole damn thing.

Even if I was a "private property" extremist, "taken to its logical conclusion" my property stops at my doorway, and I have absolutely no right to dictate how people travel in the billions of acres of southwest North America if I take property rights to an extreme.

Where I might get a "right" to dictate that would be from the idea of some sort of "National Sovereignty" of the United States (that I'm a part-shareholder in of sorts), or some sort of right to "prevent someone from being a potential and indirect threat to my sovereignty via the spending & tax system." Both of which are quite flawed concepts.

I'm far more concerned of being robbed by police, polluters, neo-liberal capital using our military to defend its dominance over foreign labor, bankers, and maybe a handful of others than new-coming illegal immigrants. I see those threats as being larger. I do "mind," I suppose, but see much bigger issues, and if anyone's being "robbed blind," it's the marginalized populations of this earth, whose natural resources have been fleeced from them.

Here's a link to how your Heritage Foundation ::) study is flawed, btw:

https://www.cato.org/blog/heritage-immi ... lly-flawed
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:28 pm

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