Krugman on taxes

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technovelist
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by technovelist » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:02 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:12 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:00 pm


It's my opinion, too. As it is the majority of people's opinions everywhere. But regardless, even if it's your right to go into another country to seek work, it is not your right to then ask for handouts.
It's of the majority of people's opinions everywhere that the super-wealthy should be taxed at much higher rates. I suppose that doesn't tickle your fancy as lending support to Krugman's/Bernie's opinions on tax rates?
Nice strawman argument. What does taxing the super wealthy have to do with giving handouts to illegals?
Oh, that's obvious.

Anyone who is against either of those is obviously a Nazi!

(Note: this is sarcasm.)
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:24 pm
It's still strawman, as your rebuttal did not address the issue of the handouts, but instead changed the subject to tax rates.
How is it a strawman? Do you even know what a straw man is? Did you learn logic from Prager U or something?

A straw man is when you attribute to someone a premise or opinion or argument they do not hold or make that is easy to debunk for the purposes of "winning an argument." I didn't make your argument for you... hence the question mark at the end of the sentence. I made it abundantly clear that I wasn't making your argument for you, but instead was trying to understand your position by stating it a certain way and checking for accuracy.

Further, this is a thread on tax rates first and foremost, and the topic of immigration got brought into it as a topic of comparison topic to these so-called principles in terms of how to use state force when enforcing the popular will. You seemed to be (tell me if I'm wrong) using popular opinion about borders as a defense for strict border patrol, but did NOT apply the same standard to high tax rates. Why is that?

At the risk of getting accused of getting accused (again) of straw-manning, I'm merely stating that you SEEMED to be stating something. If I'm straw-manning, please steel-man it up for me: Does something being popular lend evidence towards its moral legitimacy, even if it's not borders but instead high tax rates on very high incomes or the wealthy (the original topic of this thread)?

If the answer is yes, then why all the moralizing about tax rates earlier in this thread?

If the answer is no, why?

If the question is unfair, please clarify how?

I'm giving you all the outs here. If I'm straw-manning anywhere, or any other logical fallacy. Please specifically highlight it and correct it for me.
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pugchief
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by pugchief » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:35 pm

In the straw man fallacy, someone attacks a position the opponent doesn’t really hold. Instead of contending with the actual argument, he or she instead attacks the equivalent of a lifeless bundle of straw, an easily defeated effigy, which the opponent never intended upon defending anyway.
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15- ... cies-know/ (assuming you will accept my source :) )

Perhaps it could be better called a red herring fallacy. No matter, you still haven't commented on the handouts to illegals, which was my argument.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:35 pm
In the straw man fallacy, someone attacks a position the opponent doesn’t really hold. Instead of contending with the actual argument, he or she instead attacks the equivalent of a lifeless bundle of straw, an easily defeated effigy, which the opponent never intended upon defending anyway.
https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15- ... cies-know/ (assuming you will accept my source :) )

Perhaps it could be better called a red herring fallacy. No matter, you still haven't commented on the handouts to illegals, which was my argument.
I still hadn't responded to your comment because it was a simple assertion you were making, not a question or a direct challenge to any assertion I made. It's ok to say you think something is someone's right, and I didn't find it particularly interesting or important to counter your point or ask for clarity. What was more interesting and important was to juxtapose your assertions against opinions we had just been discussing on taxes. Your seemingly driving principles of popularity vs economic freedom seemed to be fleeting depending on what the topic was. To me what principles people hold is far less interesting than when they are willing to drop them for a very different set of principles.

My comment was a red herring to the argument about welfare rights of immigrants. However it was very pertinent to the tax discussion, which was where we started this discussion in the first place. I made that clear. Or at least I thought I did.

As to whether illegal immigrants have rights to "ask for" handouts. Well of course they do. But I think you meant "receive handouts from government." I'd say it's a stretch for them to have a "right" to government handouts, if you mean rights in a natural/moral (rather than legal) sense. But in a natural/moral sense I question whether anyone has a "right" to government handouts. And someone's willingness to accept government handouts probably doesn't give me the "right" to restrict their travel.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm

technovelist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:02 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:12 pm


It's of the majority of people's opinions everywhere that the super-wealthy should be taxed at much higher rates. I suppose that doesn't tickle your fancy as lending support to Krugman's/Bernie's opinions on tax rates?
Nice strawman argument. What does taxing the super wealthy have to do with giving handouts to illegals?
Oh, that's obvious.

Anyone who is against either of those is obviously a Nazi!

(Note: this is sarcasm.)
Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm
technovelist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm
pugchief wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:02 pm

Nice strawman argument. What does taxing the super wealthy have to do with giving handouts to illegals?
Oh, that's obvious.

Anyone who is against either of those is obviously a Nazi!

(Note: this is sarcasm.)
Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
I believe he is mocking the AOC left that considers anyone that doesn't believe in their full agenda a racist/nazi.

The irony is that now the left is becoming increasingly anti-semitic. Look at what's been going on with the Women's March group.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by Kbg » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:56 am

I love tax policy when it goes religious. All kinds of tax policies work. All tax policies shape incentives. If a country’s citizens are cool with it, it funds whatever citizens want funded and doesn’t cause large elements of commerce to go black or grey market then the tax is “ok.”

One of my favorite quips on US politics: If you want free stuff vote Democrat. If you don’t want to pay for free stuff vote Republican.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:30 am

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm
technovelist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm


Oh, that's obvious.

Anyone who is against either of those is obviously a Nazi!

(Note: this is sarcasm.)
Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
I believe he is mocking the AOC left that considers anyone that doesn't believe in their full agenda a racist/nazi.

The irony is that now the left is becoming increasingly anti-semitic. Look at what's been going on with the Women's March group.
Hey remember when you mentioned a "straw man?" See bolded above.

And the hardcore-left has always had some squirrelly views in its membership. This isn't new. The quasi-militant wing of every leftist movement is likely to have some undesirables.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:32 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:30 am
pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm


Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
I believe he is mocking the AOC left that considers anyone that doesn't believe in their full agenda a racist/nazi.

The irony is that now the left is becoming increasingly anti-semitic. Look at what's been going on with the Women's March group.
Hey remember when you mentioned a "straw man?" See bolded above.

And the hardcore-left has always had some squirrelly views in its membership. This isn't new. The quasi-militant wing of every leftist movement is likely to have some undesirables.
I can't be strawman here, it was Technovelist's post and I was merely trying to clarify on his behalf.
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by jhogue » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:52 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:56 am
I love tax policy when it goes religious. All kinds of tax policies work. All tax policies shape incentives. If a country’s citizens are cool with it, it funds whatever citizens want funded and doesn’t cause large elements of commerce to go black or grey market then the tax is “ok.”

One of my favorite quips on US politics: If you want free stuff vote Democrat. If you don’t want to pay for free stuff vote Republican.


The paradox of American politics: the American people want more stuff than they are willing to pay for.
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by technovelist » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:52 am

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm
technovelist wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:39 pm


Oh, that's obvious.

Anyone who is against either of those is obviously a Nazi!

(Note: this is sarcasm.)
Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
I believe he is mocking the AOC left that considers anyone that doesn't believe in their full agenda a racist/nazi.

The irony is that now the left is becoming increasingly anti-semitic. Look at what's been going on with the Women's March group.
I guess even LITERALLY marking something as SARCASM isn't good enough for some people.
Thanks for the clarification.
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moda0306
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Re: Krugman on taxes

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:56 am

technovelist wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:52 am
pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm


Pretty odd sarcasm for someone who labelled folks who advocate high tax rates on the wealthy as "communists."

Or was that sarcasm towards capitalists? Cuz I know a lot more capitalists that call high taxes "communism" than liberals that call low taxes and low welfare "Nazism."
I believe he is mocking the AOC left that considers anyone that doesn't believe in their full agenda a racist/nazi.

The irony is that now the left is becoming increasingly anti-semitic. Look at what's been going on with the Women's March group.
I guess even LITERALLY marking something as SARCASM isn't good enough for some people.
Thanks for the clarification.
You didn't mark the accusation of proponents of high-tax rates as being communists as "sarcasm." From what I can tell, you should be ridiculing yourself.
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