Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

Has anyone heard about Bitcoin?  It's a cryptocurrency:
Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer currency, meaning it is not issued by a central authority, like the dollar or yen. The money supply grows as the network grows and will max out at about 21 million bitcoins. But right now, you can purchase them online on the Mt. Gox currency exchange or an over-the counter market. They do not exist in physical form—only electronically, owned and traded by members of a special, anonymous peer-to-peer network. No third-party intermediary, such as a payment processor or a bank, needs to keep tabs on or process the electronic transactions. The network itself does, with each participating computer running a special, secure program that ensures no user can spend a coin twice or create new money out of thin air.
The general idea is that every 10 minutes, a block of 50 Bitcoins is generated.  This creates a fixed money supply.  The 50 bitcoins are not generated by a central bank, but rather are generated by a "lottery" type of system where all participants in the Bitcoin network use their computers to calculate very difficult math.  Whoever's computer correctly calculates the next block in the chain, wins that block of 50 Bitcoins.  The difficulty of the math increases as more computers are added to the mining pool.  A majority of the computers in the pool must agree on the new block, which prevents someone like Goldman Sachs from setting up a "fake" pool and printing money.

So, here is some math: 

A typical computer with a high end graphics card, the ATI Radeon 5970, consumes just under 500 watts of power.  The hardware investment is around $1,000 to buy the computer and graphics card.  Let's assume, for the sake of easy math, that this consumes 12kwh of power per day.  If you pay $0.12 per kwh, your power costs are $1.44 per day.

Up front costs - $1,000 for computer + ATI Radeon 5970
Daily costs - $1.44 for electricity

Now, the ATI Radeon 5970 can generate about 600 million hashes per second.  Plug that number in here:  http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php  to see how much money you would make mining.

Note:  Current exchange rate of Bitcoins to USD is around $6.61 USD per Bitcoin

Based on current rates (as of 5/20/11):

  Coins Dollars
per Day  ?2.47   $16.31
per Week ?18.02 $118.96
per Month ?75.15 $495.97

So, your fixed cost + $1.44 per day is now generating $16.31 per day in revenue!

Because you might only win one block of 50 coins in an entire month (or not at all), what most people do is join a pool.  A pool of miners share their computer resources, and when the pool gets a block, bitcoins are distributed evenly based on how much computing resources each miner contributed to the pool.

There are some gotchas:

1.  As more and more computers are added to the pool, the difficulty of winning each block of 50 bitcoins increases, which means while mining is profitable now, it might not be profitable soon (a few months ago, people were making $1000+ profit a month with the same miner).

2.  You might feel guilty about consuming all of this electricity and contributing to global warming.

3.  Although this seems unlikely due to the decentralized nature and limited supply of Bitcoins, the value might drop until they are worthless.

Anyone want to start mining?  I have one computer doing it but unfortunately it can only generate ~106mhash/s so it's about 1/6th as profitable as the example.  Maybe I'll spend $600 on a new graphics card.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

Here is a great video showing how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3 ... r_embedded

And an article with more info:  http://paulstamatiou.com/bitcoin-mining

I'm actually excited more about the ability to remove transaction fees and banks from the picture than anything else.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Lone Wolf »

Sounds like fun!  I'd enjoy doing that.  Were you thinking about setting up a mining pool for Permanent Portfolio types or joining an existing one?

The other cryptocurrency thread was the first time I'd heard of Bitcoin specifically (although I've been interested in the virtual currency idea for a while), so I'm not yet familiar with how the pooled mining is administered.  It makes tons of sense as an abstract concept, though.

To think -- while we build our Permanent Portfolios by earning money at our careers, our computers are busy at home building up our Variable Portfolios.  If I can just figure out how to get my lazy dogs to do something productive, I'd really have the household firing on all cylinders.  (Kids are subject to child labor laws, so we'll set that aside for now.)
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

I just joined an existing pool called deepbit.net.  Part of the problem with running a pool is that you have to first get a lot of people into your pool to have a better chance at winning, and you also must establish trust - having something like a website where people can see their contributions and trust that if you win, you're not going to just pocket all of the bitcoins and not tell anyone.

I'm using a GUI program called guiminer that makes it a little easier than doing the command line - you can download it here:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3878.0

Register at deepbit.net - all you need is your email address and a password.  Fire up guiminer (be sure to update gfx drivers first), put in your username/pw.

Also, download the bitcoin client program at bitcoin.org, when you run it for the first time it will give you a unique Bitcoin address, which is how people can send you money.

Put in your Bitcoin address in your deepbit.net account page so they can pay you.  You can setup automatic payout every X number of coins you earn.

Good luck!
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by dualstow »

Funny, I just stumbled upon bitcoin two days ago. Can't remember why.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by l82start »

they were selling at 70 cents per coin when i posted the first bit coin thread, and they are 6 to 7 dollars per coin now, i was going to participate in the bit coin experiment and report back the results in that thread but i didn't get around to it,
i did set up a  bit coin address, and was going to try to - buy bit coins, - sell them at an exchange, - purchase something with them, -try mining, and let you know how it all worked out,  i may still try it  bit coin is an interesting idea....
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

Most people are saying that so far, you can make a better return on investment by buying Bitcoins with cash, and letting them appreciate, than mining.  However, if you happen to have a gaming PC that is sitting there idle most of the day, it's not a bad thing to make a few bucks with your spare CPU cycles.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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I thought I would update this thread with my first "mining" experience.  I left my miner running for 5 days and it generated 2 Bitcoins.  I sold them on MtGox at market rate for $8.499 each, or a USD value of $16.99 total.  Transferred from there to Dwolla to get it to my bank account, which has a $0.25 transaction fee.

I'll update this post from time to time as I get more money.  I went ahead and purchased an ATI Radeon 6990 from Amazon, which should increase my generation rate to about 1.25 BC or more per day.  The new card won't arrive until mid-june.  There seems to be extremely high demand for the "means of production", ie high-end graphics cards.

If this turns out to be somewhat profitable - ie. if the $730 investment in the graphics card pays for itself in 60 days or less, I might consider setting up a mining business.  My experience in my day job as a systems engineer is perfect for running a mining operation.  All I need to do is keep several servers running 24/7, which is not very hard.

Gross profit:

5/26/11 - $16.74 (2 BTC)
6/03/11 - $27.58 (2 BTC)
6/10/11 - $38.99 (2 BTC)
6/28/11 - $33.57 (2 BTC)

Expense: First power bill is $17.63 more than last June (83 kw/h more)

Net profit first 30 days:  $99.25

Video card has been back ordered on Amazon for over 30 days now - still waiting for increased means of production.
Last edited by Storm on Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

The exchange rate is getting crazy - I just sold 2 last night for something like $14.00 each, and this morning I log into MtGox and it is above $17 USD per BTC.  Things are looking a bit frothy.  My new graphics card can't get here soon enough - it will increase my production rate by about 7x, so instead of making ~$25 USD per week I should be making more like $200.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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coin-pal is no longer in business, i was looking at bit coin prices yesterday, but it looks like it has got more complicated to buy them..
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

MtGox is about as easy as it gets.  They use a service called Dwolla which is a way to transfer money in and out, like Paypal.  The problem with Paypal and virtual goods is that anyone can buy Bitcoins with Paypal, and just tell them "I never got my stuff" and Paypal will reverse the transaction, leaving the BTC seller screwed.  Bitcoins are by their very nature irreversible (once you send someone BTC, you can't get your BTC back.)

MtGox charges 0.65% to buyers and sellers.  Basically they are acting like an OTC stock market maker and taking the spread between bid/ask.  They also charge $0.25 USD to get cash back through Dwolla.

So, the transaction flow works like this:

Buyers:
  • Create a MtGox account.
  • Create a Dwolla account.
  • Fund your Dwolla account by transferring some money from your checking/savings.
  • Fund your MtGox account by transferring from Dwolla.
  • Buy BTC on MtGox.
  • Withdraw BTC from MtGox (have them sent to your Bitcoin wallet).
Sellers:
  • Create a MtGox account.
  • Create a Dwolla account.
  • Fund your MtGox account by sending BTC from your wallet.
  • Sell your BTC on MtGox.
  • Withdraw $USD from MtGox (have them sent to your Dwolla account).
  • Withdraw $USD from Dwolla (have them sent to your bank account).
I will admit, the first time it took a few days to get my money out of Dwolla, but after my checking account was verified, my second transaction went through in a couple hours.

Keep in mind, the entire process is in it's infancy.  Pretty soon there will probably be banks or currency exchanges like Dwolla that will go directly from BTC -> USD or USD -> BTC.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by l82start »

i wish i hadn't been delayed  back when i first discovered bit coin,
it looks like i will have to go through dwoller, but i cant even begin to predict if 17.00 bucks is a good price or a bad one. compared to the .77 cents it was a few months ago it seems to much,
  i will probably just  get set up to make a transaction and then wait and see, i just set up the miner program but i don't have the graphics cards, i will probably work on getting a miner going and wait for a big dip (if there is one) before i am willing to pay for the coins...
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

L82start - what an appropriate nickname.  I wish I would have started back when they were only $0.10 or $0.25 as well.  I feel like I'm on the tail end of things, but who knows, we could all be at the beginning.  I think we're due for a short-term correction soon, but I have a feeling BTC might be over $100 by the end of the year.

I would say mining is probably not worth it at all, unless you have powerful graphics cards.  Even with a top of the line quad core CPU, you will probably only generate a few cents in a week, which is not even enough to pay the electricity bill for leaving that computer on.

If you happen to have a high-end gaming PC with a decent graphics card, things are very different.
Last edited by Storm on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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i don't have the kind of computer power to make money at this, but i did want to set it up to see how it works, i played with it a bit earlier today and got the miner  and the deepbit account set up but i can only get it to say "connecting" and "no open CL device" ...  i will have to look for a faq to see what i did wrong..

i will keep an eye open for that correction,  the big jump in price has a "to fast to soon" feel to it to me, the popularity and functionality don't seem to be caught up to the price move, but i think you are right they will continue to climb over time and even a 100$ by year end could be possible..
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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l82start wrote: i don't have the kind of computer power to make money at this, but i did want to set it up to see how it works, i played with it a bit earlier today and got the miner  and the deepbit account set up but i can only get it to say "connecting" and "no open CL device" ...  i will have to look for a faq to see what i did wrong..

i will keep an eye open for that correction,   the big jump in price has a "to fast to soon" feel to it to me, the popularity and functionality don't seem to be caught up to the price move, but i think you are right they will continue to climb over time and even a 100$ by year end could be possible..
The "no openCL device" is letting you know you have no graphics card that is suitable.  Go to the File menu, and choose "New other miner..." then choose rpcminer-cpu.exe as the file.  Give it a name like "CPU", then you can choose the deepbit pool, type your username and password, and get busy mining.

To give you an idea of the difference in performance - I have a quad core Intel i7 chip which is top of the line and overclocked.  I can only mine at 5.2 million hashes a second.  My Nvidia graphics card does 106.8 million, and the ATI Radeon 6990 will do about 750 million.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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Storm wrote: The "no openCL device" is letting you know you have no graphics card that is suitable.  Go to the File menu, and choose "New other miner..." then choose rpcminer-cpu.exe as the file.  Give it a name like "CPU", then you can choose the deepbit pool, type your username and password, and get busy mining.

To give you an idea of the difference in performance - I have a quad core Intel i7 chip which is top of the line and overclocked.  I can only mine at 5.2 million hashes a second.  My Nvidia graphics card does 106.8 million, and the ATI Radeon 6990 will do about 750 million.
thanks that got rid of the no open Cl message but i still only get "connecting" message on the bottom ?  it may not be worth the effort to figure it out given how slow i would be mining when it was working...
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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Ok so all my friends have put together computers to do bit coin mining. They are doing something like a billion hashes a second on multiple GPU boards. They are talking about the money they are going to make and the speculation on the value is crazy.

It's official: I am calling the BitCoin bubble!

You heard it here first. I told them yesterday that I'm watching this as an interesting sociological experiment. We will see how it goes.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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craigr wrote: Ok so all my friends have put together computers to do bit coin mining. They are doing something like a billion hashes a second on multiple GPU boards. They are talking about the money they are going to make and the speculation on the value is crazy.

It's official: I am calling the BitCoin bubble!

You heard it here first. I told them yesterday that I'm watching this as an interesting sociological experiment. We will see how it goes.
Yep, 1 gigahash a second is very easily doable with just 2 high end graphics cards in a single computer - ATI 5970 or 6990.  I mentioned earlier when I saw the price jump from $7 a few weeks ago to $17 yesterday, things are looking frothy.

What I am interested in seeing is this - it seems like bubbles don't really get going until the average Joe starts participating.  There have been some crazy articles in the mainstream media lately - like this one:

http://www.smartmoney.com/invest/stocks ... 029053200/

What happens if the bubble gets mainstream attention and average Joe on the street starts buying Bitcoins?  We could just be seeing the beginning of the bubble.  Right now, the only people I see that are interested in are some subset of computer nerds and libertarians.  If things get a little easier and Joe on the street starts speculating, this bubble could get interesting.

I'm ready for a correction in the coming months, but I don't think we've seen the end of this Bitcoin bubble.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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this probably isn't the big bubble, like storm said that will happen with the mainstreaming of bit coin, i still think 17$ is a mini bubble though, it got some press and its been driven up. I expect a correction before the long steady climb into the next spike......  (my best guess)
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

Bumping thread with 30 day profit statistics.  Bitcoin went through a liquidity crisis as hackers took over the largest BTC->USD exchange and drove the price down to $0.01 by trying to dump 250,000 BTC as a market order.  This was temporary as when trading opened back up things quickly stabilized back around $15-17 per BTC.

Gross profit:

5/26/11 - $16.74 (2 BTC)
6/03/11 - $27.58 (2 BTC)
6/10/11 - $38.99 (2 BTC)
6/28/11 - $33.57 (2 BTC)

Expense: First power bill is $17.63 more than last June (83 kw/h more)

Net profit first 30 days:  $99.25

Vacation July (let the miner rest)
New hardware is here - I should be able to generate 0.5 BTC a day now.

New graphics card $729.99
Sold existing graphics card for $275 on eBay
Net cost $454.99

8/1/11 - $26.67 (2 BTC)
8/15/11 - $33.26 (2 BTC)
8/21/11 - $56.43 (5 BTC) price drop
9/03/11 - $42.29 (5 BTC) price drop
Last edited by Storm on Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

Potential profit for trading BTC:

If I had made a $500 investment in BTC on 5/26/11, instead of mining, when BTC was trading at $8.50 per coin.  Today's prices are $16.95 a coin, which would have sold today for about $997.05.

So, potential profit from trading BTC would have been about $497.05, rather than mining.  During this time period, BTC value fluctuated from $8.50 a coin up to $30 and back to where it is today.  A trader who set good stops could probably make more than this.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

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Can anyone give us a Bitcoin update?

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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by l82start »

mt GOX bitcoin exchange got hacked at one point, and coin pal has been suspended at pay pal.. it looks like they are trading at 6.50 to 7.25 today USD,
i lost interest when i couldn't buy through pay pal and mtGOX got hacked so my information (except for today's price) is a few months old...
i will still keep an eye on the experiment because i think it still has promise, but i have no plan to buy any for the time being, and i don't have the fast equipment necessary to make mining worth while..
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Storm »

I just updated my last post with latest sales and profits.  Bitcoin has taken a serious hit in value over the last few weeks.  It seems that the mainstream media is losing interest in Bitcoin, which is causing the interest from traders to drop as well, causing the value to drop.  There are also competing cryptocurrencies hitting the market like Solidcoin, who enjoyed an interesting 2 week run, then crashed and burned horribly as people lost interest.

Where BTC was as high as $20-30 USD per coin a few months ago, now it is trading around $7.  I'm still leaving my computer on as it generates about $3.50 per day for about $1.25 in electricity costs, but it is not as profitable as it was a few months ago.

If I can recoup the costs on hardware I will have come out ahead anyway.  Basically, mining bitcoins pays for my PC gaming habit...  If I can pay for the hardware with mining, my hobby of PC gaming is free.

I wouldn't recommend it to others unless you already have a gaming PC or are a PC gamer looking to recoup some of your hardware costs.
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Re: Bitcoin Mining for Fun and Profit

Post by Kaffe »

The price on Mt.Gox has fluctuated wildly, falling below 5 dollars in the last week before rising to 7.  The whole Mt.Gox exchange seems like a total scam and the main reason people still use the site is that you can only withdraw 1000 USD from your account per week.  Supposedly you can get this increased but who knows. They are a dubious company based in Japan and Mt.Gox is short for Magic the Gathering online exchange.  Yes, this site started as a card trading site.  I doubt they are capable of handling a currency exchange.  It is likely that Mt.Gox has been manipulating the market ever since the hack and possibly before.

Also Mybitcoin.com which was an online wallet storage site was hacked and users lost half of their bitcoins.  In fact, pretty much everything with bitcoin has been hacked at some point, and has provided endless comedy on the internet.  The founder of the bitcoin Webshow, OnlyOneTV, was found out to have been convicted of mortgage fraud and prostitution.  This was uncovered due to his posting on forums of detailed strategies for seducing male, virgin prostitutes in Thailand. 

It sounds like you didn't got too deep into bitcoin Storm and I hope you won't lose any money from this.  But everyone else should avoid bitcoin like the plague.
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