Fear is the mind-killer

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer and PS,

I have to call a little BS here in these comments and clips.

"human beings want to plan and control events and things in order to obtain the results that they want....Yes

faith frees them from the bondage of caring for themselves and presiding over their own destinies....What is that trying to say?

It no longer requires them to predict the outcome of their planning and labors....Good luck with that"

You guys have families, you guys have jobs, you guys have bills, houses, cars, tuition, etc, etc. What am I supposed to read into this? Hey, I don't feel like going into work today, I may just blow it off. I don't want to take that Chem final today, so I won't. Seriously?

Of course you have to plan and control events to some extent to prevent from being destitute or homeless, or not graduating, etc, etc. That's why we are all on an investing forum! Am I supposed to read that God will take care of everything and I don't have to care about myself or my family's well-being? Of course things don't always go as expected...

That's how I read it but I am not religious and sorry if I am offending people. The faith I have is in myself, my family and my friends.

Hey, no offense at all. I considered whether to post the material from the book as it can easily be taken out of the greater context of the whole book. For me, the the point of the quoted material is: use your God given gifts today to the best of your ability - reason, skills, social contacts, work contacts, etc. but always remember that it is God that is in charge of both this world and the eternal world to come. Thus, don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. Don't be anxious and uptight, it just eats away at ones self and is toxic to your family, friends, and neighbors. But, to really understand the quote, I'd suggest reading the book if you wish to understand thoroughly. Sometimes snippets fail to communicate, just like it is very difficult to communicate (vs. sharing data) on the internet. Can't see body language etc. Sorry for the confusion.

[Cortopassi]

use your God given gifts today to the best of your ability - reason, skills, social contacts, work contacts, etc. but always remember that it is God that is in charge of both this world and the eternal world to come. Thus, don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. Don't be anxious and uptight, it just eats away at ones self and is toxic to your family, friends, and neighbors.

That is much more succinct, thank you!

[Mountaineer]

use your God given gifts today to the best of your ability - reason, skills, social contacts, work contacts, etc. but always remember that it is God that is in charge of both this world and the eternal world to come. Thus, don't worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. Don't be anxious and uptight, it just eats away at ones self and is toxic to your family, friends, and neighbors.

That is much more succinct, thank you!

You are welcome. And, I really do suggest the book for anyone, Christian or not. It gives a good understanding of Luther's thought processes and how one of the major events in Western Civilization (the Lutheran Reformation which initiated the Protestant Reformation) came to be 500 years ago. One may or may not agree with the Luther's theology but it is a well written and interesting read. The impact of the Reformation is much broader than many realize: hospitals, capitalism, end of serfdom, universities, perhaps even was a big contributor to the settling of America, etc.

[Pointedstick]

Cortopassi, the way I would describe it is, "give it your all, but let go of your attachment to the outcome."

Obviously we all have goals and preferred outcomes, but it's a curious paradox that often the harder we try to force a situation into our mental model of how it should be, the less it works, or the worse the outcome turns out to be is even if it does work. Whereas, if we aim at a particular goal, come up with a sound plan, execute on it, and then completely detach from our expectations regarding how it turns out, not only are we more likely to be able to flexibly accept and react to whatever outcome happens, but strangely it seems to be more likely to turn out the way we want anyway!

I have no idea why this is, but I have experienced it in my own life and the world's religions refer to the same phenomenon in their own ways so it must be something very fundamental to the human condition.

[Cortopassi]

it's a curious paradox that often the harder we try to force a situation into our mental model of how it should be, the less it works, or the worse the outcome turns out to be is even if it does work.

My daughter is a perfect example. Did some online tutoring for the SAT, took it 3 times, did a little better every time, but still equivalent to about a 33 on the ACT.

Took the ACT for the heck of it, no pressure, got a 35.

BUT....you know what it usually takes to get 100% mentally to the: "give it your all, but let go of your attachment to the outcome" outlook?

Financial security.

[WiseOne]

The happiest retired people I know are very busy, and many of them are earning quite a bit of money from their post-retirement activities, such as selling art, teaching classes, giving panels at conferences, earning royalties from the sale of books and music, selling wax and honey from beekeeping--things like that. Not like $50k+ a year, but enough to provide a nice supplement and backup to their Social Security/pension/investment portfolio income. Like MT's carpet cleaning business. I just know that's what my model of retirement is going to eventually look like, rather than the "watch TV and play poker with my friends every night" model.

Amen to that. A question though. Did those retirees start doing these activities with the expectation and need to make money in order to survive? Or did they retire financially independent due to pensions, savings, SS etc, and then start doing these things for non-financial reasons?

I guess I'm still kinda confused about your message. The above is not only compatible with being financially secure, it's actually MADE POSSIBLE by being financially secure. If I didn't have any savings, I sure as heck wouldn't be retiring and taking up beekeeping.

[Cortopassi]

MADE POSSIBLE by being financially secure.

Exactly. I am not retired, but I AM a beekeeper...

Congregating around the entrance this past summer. Called bearding, when it's hot a lot stay outside the hive to keep the inside cooler.



Fruits of their labor



Wax on left is rendered from melted and filtered comb on right

[Mountaineer]

I think I'll leave the bee-keeping to others. I could not afford all the epi-pens.

[Pointedstick]

it's a curious paradox that often the harder we try to force a situation into our mental model of how it should be, the less it works, or the worse the outcome turns out to be is even if it does work.

My daughter is a perfect example. Did some online tutoring for the SAT, took it 3 times, did a little better every time, but still equivalent to about a 33 on the ACT.

Took the ACT for the heck of it, no pressure, got a 35.

Exactly, you got it! Now apply the same lesson to the rest of life too, not just standardized tests.

BUT....you know what it usually takes to get 100% mentally to the: "give it your all, but let go of your attachment to the outcome" outlook?

Financial security.

I guess I'm still kinda confused about your message. The above is not only compatible with being financially secure, it's actually MADE POSSIBLE by being financially secure. If I didn't have any savings, I sure as heck wouldn't be retiring and taking up beekeeping.

The FI community already sort of understands this with the concept of "fuck you money." It's an acknowledgment that financial hardship generates negative emotions, and that financial security alleviates them.

However, achieving financial security only alleviates the negative emotions attached to not having enough money. It doesn't do anything for the other stresses in your life, and in fact, having so much money or a large enough income stream that you don't worry about money anymore can actually produce new stresses: How can I save this money without the risk of it being lost or stolen? If I invest it, what's the best way? How long can my income stream last? What happens when people find out how wealthy I am? Is she only into me because I have a lot of money? Where am I going to store all this stuff I bought with my money? Ugh I think I need a bigger house... And so on.

So becoming financially independent or even secure is not actually the ultimate solution to our problems. The true path to psychological freedom is to stop attaching negative emotions to life's stresses and challenges. This is what I'm saying is the wisdom embedded in the world's religions. Basically all of them teach that a state of clarity and psychological freedom is available to everyone, today--not just people with 50,000 shekels and acres of productive land.

Of course, it's not that you stop caring about your obligations and they magically take care of themselves. That's silly. Rather, it's that when you discard your apprehension, fear, and expectations for preferred outcomes, your obligations not only become easy, but they can actually turn into a joy, a positive pleasure. As a result, you do a better job with them and somehow you actually attract wealth, attention, and followers to yourself. It's like the good things in the world become drawn to your radiance rather than repulsed by your negativity.

Have you ever had something annoying you needed to do that you put off and made worse? That's the inverse: when you hold onto something stressful so tightly in your mind that you actually mess it up because it's attached to negative emotions. That's the true problem. We need to focus on that, not the proximate causes (not enough money, are my kids going to get into a good school, why doesn't my boss respect me, etc).

[jacksonM]

Rather, it's that when you discard your apprehension, fear, and expectations for preferred outcomes, your obligations not only become easy, but they can actually turn into a joy, a positive pleasure.

Well said. I think you might just as well change the title of your thread to "Expectations are the mind-killers". If you go through life always expecting things to turn out a certain way you are only setting yourself up for disappointment and anger. Better to take life as it comes and enjoy the surprises it has in store for you along the way.

[Cortopassi]

It doesn't do anything for the other stresses in your life, and in fact, having so much money or a large enough income stream that you don't worry about money anymore can actually produce new stresses: How can I save this money without the risk of it being lost or stolen? If I invest it, what's the best way? How long can my income stream last?

Sounds like budd....

[dualstow]

MADE POSSIBLE by being financially secure.

Exactly. I am not retired, but I AM a beekeeper...
(images)

That's really cool! My ex gf does that too. Seems like a great hobby.

My daughter
...
Took the ACT for the heck of it, no pressure, got a 35.

For those who are curious, a 36 is a perfect score.

[dualstow]

I have no memory of the ACT at all. I remember getting a 1250 on the SAT, an ok score.
My brother got a nearly perfect score.

[Kriegsspiel]

I only took the ACT

fuck SAT lessons; I'll pass the ACT guessin.
-Eminem

I had bad diarrhea and had to leave the room during the test, but I still did ok

Deformed fool, taking a shit in a warm pool and still scorin a 32.
-Eminem

And I think that's really what PS is trying to say. Stop worrying about stuff and just be fucking awesome.

[Cortopassi]

And I think that's really what PS is trying to say. Stop worrying about stuff and just be fucking awesome.

Easy to say; hard to do. See my logo to the left? Pretty damn freaking expensive, even with aid. Of course, if I quit and had no income, it would probably get to near free....hmmmm.....

[Kriegsspiel]

And I think that's really what PS is trying to say. Stop worrying about stuff and just be fucking awesome.

Easy to say; hard to do. See my logo to the left?

Simple.

BE MORE AWESOME

Pretty damn freaking expensive, even with aid. Of course, if I quit and had no income, it would probably get to near free....hmmmm.....

How did your 35 ACT daughter not get a full ride? Much less have it still be damn freaking expensive?

[flyingpylon]

Wow, so much going on in this thread.

I worked for a commercial beekeeper for several years in high school. Bees are interesting, that's for sure. I can see how it would be an enjoyable hobby. The stings only hurt for a little while.

Regarding money and other stresses, as I've gotten older I have begun to realize that I want to rid myself of stresses and that having more money is not necessarily going to do that. For example, when making decisions about things I now place a much higher value on my sanity and my time than I do my money (i.e. I'm willing to pay more for less hassle). I also think that in retirement I can be happier with less money than I originally thought it would take because all I really want is peace of mind. I have an old college friend with a son that is a highly-paid professional athlete so money is absolutely no problem, but I often wonder how that feels and what other stresses his son struggles with. I bet they can be just as large or larger because everything is relative to each individual.

Regarding expensive college educations, there are some of us that seem to fall into a gap where we make too much to receive financial aid, but not enough to fork over 4 years of tuition at a private school without even noticing. I'm grateful for what we have, but it's still a little frustrating to realize that many more schools would be within reach if we actually made less.

[Pointedstick]

My college degree was pretty freakin' expensive too, so I paid off the debt and then moved on with life. No need to dwell on it!

I find that if something is keeping me awake at night, I need to address it as a pants-on-fire priority #0 task. Paying off my 7% student loan debts after graduation was one such example. So I shoveled literally 100% of my discretionary income into the debt until it was paid off. No luxuries, no savings even beyond a small emergency fund. End result: more than $75,000 of debt was paid off in three years. Problem solved, time to move on with life, no need to dwell on it anymore.

So many of our stresses are caused by the feeling that we have irremovable burdens; we come to identify with Atlas--holding up the weight of the world, believing that calamity will ensue if we lose our vigilance.

So many of these burdens are self-imposed and we really can let them go. Others, like the aforementioned cost-of-college issues (and other practical, technical concerns), are mostly a matter of focus. We can't just let them go, but we can focus on eliminating them as quickly as possible by turning on them with our full power and resources. It is amazing how quickly a problem gets solved when you turn your full focus to it like a laser beam or the Eye of Sauron. You'll burn through it at warp speed! Once all of those practical problems are gone, and the self-imposed burdens have been relieved, the feeling of being Atlas disappears and is replaced with lightness, serenity, and freedom.

In so many ways, what we need is not to find freedom in an unfree world, but in our unfree minds.

[Kriegsspiel]

Yes. Giving less fucks could be good advice.

I don't mean it in the sense of "GIMME DAT $125,000 student loan for my African American Studies degree, I don't give a fuck!." I share Mark Manson's interpretation. So it might be more like "I don't give a fuck about having a college education, I'm going to start my own business/become an Army Ranger/apprentice/learn how to sell/something else."

The thing is, not everyone is smart. Some people are stupid. But they are caught in a prisoner's dilemma, getting loans to go to college (because the loans are guaranteed by the federal government). And their lives are kinda getting ruined, because they don't have the same "I'm going to destroy this student loan, one double mocha frappe at a time!" attitude that some have.

Weirdly, I remember PS riffing on this subject within the context of automation/robotic job loss or something like that. What he (you? Who am I talking to? Dunno) is saying now is right, but is a sizable fraction of the population willing to eat rice & lentils, drink the cheapest booze, live in a cheap apartment with no furniture, keep their heat off or set at 60 degrees, no vacations, and cancel cable/internet/netflix/everything to pay off their loans/become FI like some of us? Rhetorical.

So maybe PS and I aren't on the same wavelength after all? No, I'm pretty sure we have converged on the same lifethink. I just don't think it can be generalized to everyone. Shit, I think even more people need to be fearful, imposing more borders on their lives. Because their capacity to fuck themselves over is quite high nowadays. The trick seems to be having the self-awareness enough to know which camp you fall in.

Zero fucks given: the way, the truth, and the light. Fueled up on bourbon and homemade cider wine to write this post. If I kept my own bees I could make 100% homemade mead. That would be awesome. I would only need an enemy's skull to drink it out to approximate my own personal Valhalla. Come at me bro.

[Pointedstick]

Definitely true that not everyone can do this. That's why leaders and hierarchies exist: so (theoretically) the strongest and wisest among us can use their power to create a just and harmonious environment for those beneath them.

Sadly today's elites feel more like robber-baron looters who are most interested in vacuuming up wealth and laying societal land mines for people without a certain level of cleverness or intelligence. Education, housing, and healthcare are things that "regular" people have increasing difficulty affording, neatly sorting them into a roiling underclass who cannot and and a class of bourgeois producers who eat the table scraps of the elite, trapped by debt slavery in their pursuit of modern respectability (nice house in a coastal city, college for 2.1 kids, cadillac employer health insurance).

On this subject, there is a coming class conflict storm, and I don't think there's a coincidence that it's happening 90 years after the last one (Gilded Age & Great Depression). History is cyclical based around the length of human lifespans: as a generation's knowledge and influence is lost, the mistakes they learned not to make are re-made. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E ... nal_theory

Similarly, I expect another world war before 2030 or so--most likely with the USA and China as the primary belligerents. History has shown that when a rising power confronts an established power, war results about 75% of the time (12 out of 16 recorded occurrences in the last 500 years, see https://www.quora.com/What-is-Thucydide ... t-Chambers). Happily all the peaceful resolutions have been in this century, so maybe we're improving on this front, but you never know!

I could be 100% wrong about these stipulations (and I hope so), but I am not greatly invested in the outcomes one way or another. I have faith in my and my family's ability to adapt to whatever trying times the world throws at us. Goodness knows our ancestors in even the not-so-recent past did. If they could, we can too.

[Cortopassi]

How did your 35 ACT daughter not get a full ride? Much less have it still be damn freaking expensive?

Krieg,

Not sure how long it's been since you've gone to school or kids to school, but the competition is fierce at the "higher" ranked schools and a 35, while awesome, is not what it used to be. Kids nowadays are either smarter, or better prepared than I ever was. If the school choice was wide open, we could have found one for a full ride, sure.

I make an engineer's salary. Not bad, not huge. The last stats I saw were that the highest percent of students come from family's over $250k. That's why I get aid, and don't have to pay full cost (we know some who are...). And that's also why it's not full aid, need to be sub $70k or so to get that level of aid.

After one semester finished (last final was today) the end result I see and hear in talking with my daughter is, ehhh, it's a school like any other likely is. Likes it, but not crazy. No green ND blood coursing through her veins yet. My big thing is ND alum are huge in networking, and she'll have many more avenues open for jobs because of that.

My wife and I have the same mindset PS. Paid off our student loans within 2 years of graduating. Paid off our mortgage in 9 years. I have little to complain, or worry about, but most everyone does worry about something.

[Xan]

A college advisor once told me that a good SAT/ACT score won't get you in, but a bad one will keep you out.

[WiseOne]

OK PS I understand what you're trying to say now....

I think a certain carpenter 2,000 years ago said it best:

"

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself.

I just wonder if the lilies ever have to pay property taxes or an electric bill though. Speaking for myself, I'm still sold on the idea of becoming financially independent so that I have more choices available to me - but constantly tinkering with, worrying over, and trying to optimize investments is not what I'm after. Totally agree with that.

[dualstow]

I have a cousin who married a religious Christian who had a bunch of children with her and said, "God will provide." As far as I know, though, it was my dad who has been providing.

[Cortopassi]

I have a cousin who married a religious Christian who had a bunch of children with her and said, "God will provide." As far as I know, though, it was my dad who has been providing.

Thanks for a hearty laugh. If I was religious maybe I could have used that line on my kids...