the left is eating itself abortion split

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boglerdude
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by boglerdude » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:45 pm

Whats the problem with abortion? I mean how did it evolve to be an issue. Assume for the purposes of this question that it's not "murder." Parents dont want kids thinking they can get away with sex?
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by Xan » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:18 am

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:45 pm
Whats the problem with abortion? I mean how did it evolve to be an issue. Assume for the purposes of this question that it's not "murder." Parents dont want kids thinking they can get away with sex?
I don't think you can just assume away the crux of the issue in your question.
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:07 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:18 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:45 pm
Whats the problem with abortion? I mean how did it evolve to be an issue. Assume for the purposes of this question that it's not "murder." Parents dont want kids thinking they can get away with sex?
I don't think you can just assume away the crux of the issue in your question.
I agree... this really is the issue isn't it?

Not saying it's definitely murder, but I wouldn't ask someone to "assume" that away unless we were just going through some sort of weird mental exercise outside of the main moral crux of the issue.

Here's the mental exercise I like that does get to the crux of the issue, and I really do think it traps anti-abortion folks, but I don't mean it in a snarky or disrespectful way...

- Say for a second you're in a fertility clinic and it's burning down. You're running out of the building and you know there is a huge container of test-tubes with hundreds of fertilized eggs in them. You're about to go in to "save those lives" before running out of the burning building, and you hear across the hall a crying 8-year old child. Pretend for a second you truly believe you can only save one or the other (hundreds of lives vs one life) and that a return trip into the burning building will be unlikely, dooming the other to death.

Who do you save?

I know what I'd do. I'd save the 8-year old child without flinching. I really think most anti-abortion folks would do the same thing.
Simonjester wrote: say for a second you were at a trade show for pregnant women and you knew that a toxic chemical was about to be released that would cause hundreds of mothers to have a spontaneous miscarriage, but cause no other harm to the women, but it would kill an 8 year old child that was also present and you were certain you could only save the hundreds of unborn babies or the one 8 year old which would you choose?
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am

....And this thread is officially derailed, and spoiled.
Alright, we have a split! Not the most appetizing title, but I haven’t had breakfast yet. O0
Last edited by dualstow on Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:18 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am
....And this thread is officially derailed, and spoiled.
Ugh sorry. I guess now the left is not only eating itself, but thread topics.
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:58 am

Interesting question. I would go for saving the babies, provided the women are unaware of the impending chemical doom. And it sounds like they are.
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:18 am
dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am
....And this thread is officially derailed, and spoiled.
Ugh sorry. I guess now the left is not only eating itself, but thread topics.
O0
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:01 am

Simonjester wrote: I agree.. in the second thought experiment you save the 100s of unborn lives over the 1 already born child, the point I was trying to make with my thought experiment was that the first one has a fault, in the first one moda is right you save the living child and let the test tubes go.. but the problem is a life takes three parts to be viable, the sperm, the egg (the fertilisation) and a womb to live and grow in, so (to my thinking anyway) test tube eggs are not the same as an unborn baby.
Same here.

I’ve never really understood the issue. I would think that 100% of people would want to minimize abortions, right? There are so many really low cost 100% or near 100% methods to prevent pregnancy nowadays. You may have a religious reason not to use birth control, fine, that’s your position, don’t force it on me.

But in my world, the minimal accidental pregnancies should be allowed to be terminated, without being outlawed. The main point being those should be minimized by default because there are so many methods to prevent.

It probably sounds bad, but I’d be in favor of some 18 year long vaccine given to boys and girls at birth that effectively make them unable to conceive until they reach 18.
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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:18 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:18 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:45 pm
Whats the problem with abortion? I mean how did it evolve to be an issue. Assume for the purposes of this question that it's not "murder." Parents dont want kids thinking they can get away with sex?
I don't think you can just assume away the crux of the issue in your question.
I think I mentioned it in the other thread, but my college Rhetoric TA didn't even assume it away, he just let me know that it wasn't the crux of the issue. Can't argue with that logic!
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:22 am

Simonjester wrote: ...
but the problem is a life takes three parts to be viable, the sperm, the egg (the fertilisation) and a womb to live and grow in, so (to my thinking anyway) test tube eggs are not the same as an unborn baby.
It’s a tough one. I think moda has got me thinking, here. The test tube shouldn’t be any different. It feels different, but we shouldn’t be going by mere feelings here.

I think the earth is overpopulated with humans. I don’t want mass death or suffering, obviously, but fewer babies. Fewer pregnancies and more abortions when it’s the mother’s choice. It’s not going to happen. The places that really need it, like the Philippines, will never have it. Maybe they could use a one-child policy for a while?

In Simonjester question, I feel bad for the mothers, not the babies. In moda’s example, I’m not worried about the test tubes’ feelings.
Simonjester wrote:
i don’t know that it based on feelings so much as the fact that, if instead of a fire some janitor pushed the case of test tubes into the back of a closet and forgot it, within a relatively short period of time there would be just as little life in it as if it had been burnt to ash..

over population seems to primarily be a symptom of corruption and poor government leading to poverty and hunger, I would be far more inclined to think taking those things on directly would be more effective (and moral), than yet another policy to prohibit or require certain family planning decisions, being made by the very same governments and authorities whose corruption is so near the root of the problem..
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:16 pm

Wait- since when are abortions “required?”
Simonjester wrote: i meant prohibit abortion and require only one child but... if there is a one child policy and you goof up and get pregnant, you would be limited to choosing from few options.. an abortion or facing what ever punishment or threat that is used to enforce the policy (or flee the country)... not a direct we will haul you to the abortionist type "required" (hopefully) but still... a form of government taking control over peoples lives

not to mention the unintended consequences that mess with demographics and who knows what else.. the shortage of females in china would be one example.
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:39 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:22 am
I think the earth is overpopulated with humans. I don’t want mass death or suffering, obviously, but fewer babies... The places that really need it, like the Philippines, will never have it. Maybe they could use a one-child policy for a while?
You're getting awfully close to wrongthink here 8)
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:58 pm

That actually happened with my wife’s family. Her mom had special permission to have a second child because she was in the military. For some reason, the Chinese authorities changed their minds *after* she was pregnant and asked her to abort! She chose not to, and gave birth to my future wife. I’m not clear on what the penalty was, but talk about a stressful pregnancy!

Kriegs: I’m all about wrongthink. It’s too late. O0
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by Xan » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:08 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:58 pm
That actually happened with my wife’s family. Her mom had special permission to have a second child because she was in the military. For some reason, the Chinese authorities changed their minds *after* she was pregnant and asked her to abort! She chose not to, and gave birth to my future wife. I’m not clear on what the penalty was, but talk about a stressful pregnancy!

Kriegs: I’m all about wrongthink. It’s too late. O0
Wow! That's quite a story.
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:19 pm

Crazy, right?
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by dualstow » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:06 pm

Simonjester wrote: an interesting article that popped up in my in-box https://www.westernjournal.com/china-no ... -truth_org dealing with one child policy’s in china.
Interesting indeed. I knew about the surplus of bachelors and the aging population, but I never read before that the Chinese gov't "regrets" the decision (That word only appears in the title). Then again, I didn't realize the birth rate in China was currently so low.

As virtually everyone knows, the 1-child policy led to a lot of abortions because a lot of couples would keep trying until they got a son. In Taiwan, where there was no such policy, I met a lot of girls with a single son with tons of older sisters, which makes it a pretty cool island. In the mainland, not such a pretty picture.
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Re: the left is eating itself abortion split

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:06 pm

I've always marveled at how a lump of cells suitable only for the garbage can could be magically transformed into a real living breathing person via that magical brief trip down the birth canal and then become adept in just a few years at choosing what gender it is. :o
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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