Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

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D1984
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by D1984 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:25 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:21 am
D1984 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:08 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:30 pm
I think we need to be at the point where robots are doing pretty much everything before we start UBI.
Only true if by "UBI" you mean we just take the per capita GDP and divide it equally amongst every citizen; that's so elatively far in the future (and so utopian) I don't think it's even worth considering for the moment....we're talking about some crazy Star Trek FALSC-level stuff right there.


...
What is FALSC? I did an honest search, then filtered out "false", but only found German language results.
FALSC = Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism....i.e. replicators, post-scarcity society, machines and robots do all the work and humans have to "go where no man has gone before" exploring the universe just to have something to occupy themselves, etc.
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dualstow
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am

Ah, like that machine that produces Venusian chocolate on demand, and stuff.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:54 am
pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:55 pm
If everyone gets 1000/mo, rents go up 1000/mo
And if you don't believe this, see what government subsidies of college tuition have done in that arena.
You're entirely right about tuition, but this would be much broader. "Here's $1000/month to use for anything" is very different from saying "sign here and we'll give this institution $100,000".
Yes... I don't see why it would ALL go towards rent. Sure, some people would choose to allocate some of their funds towards better housing. Others would want to work less. Others might patch up their credit. Others will go out boozing more often. Some might start a business.

The reason college and healthcare are so expensive, even if I'm 100% charitable to the conservative arguments on the matter, is that the funds are directed SPECIFICALLY towards certain types of expenses and institutions.

$1,000 per month would mean very different things to different people. I think at the very least it would be extremely interesting to see how household economics would change throughout the country. I highly doubt it would be as boring as "rent just went up by $1,000." Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by technovelist » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:13 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:54 am
pugchief wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:55 pm
If everyone gets 1000/mo, rents go up 1000/mo
And if you don't believe this, see what government subsidies of college tuition have done in that arena.
You're entirely right about tuition, but this would be much broader. "Here's $1000/month to use for anything" is very different from saying "sign here and we'll give this institution $100,000".
Correct. It would have far worse effects on the economy.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by technovelist » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
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Xan
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Xan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:16 pm

technovelist wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
I'm not sure that inflation would be the result, so much as redirecting a bit more of society's efforts towards producing things that people lower on the totem pole need.
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dualstow
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:16 pm

technovelist wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
Well, maybe Elliot Spitzer-level ones.
I don’t know..how much do they cost?

Asking for a friend.
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l82start
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by l82start » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:21 pm

technovelist wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
it was my understanding that the UBI is a replacement for the free money we hand out already, and that the cost of UBI would be more than covered by the value of the existing handouts and the vast savings in bureaucratic overhead.. therefore not inflationary.. of course in the real world increasing bureaucratic overhead and the expansion of government is likely the real underlying goal of any social planning so... back to the drawing board
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by boglerdude » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 pm

And then there's "vote for me ill increase your UBI to 1500!"
hm maybe i should go into politics.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

D1984 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:08 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:30 pm
I think we need to be at the point where robots are doing pretty much everything before we start UBI.
A modest UBI, at $1,000 or $1,100 a month for adults and $350 or $400 per minor under 18, is quite possible right now. Scott Santens did a piece on showing which programs we could cancel/cut and what taxes would be needed to finance it; I'll see if I can find it and post the link to it here.
l82start wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:21 pm
it was my understanding that the UBI is a replacement for the free money we hand out already, and that the cost of UBI would be more than covered by the value of the existing handouts and the vast savings in bureaucratic overhead.. therefore not inflationary.. of course in the real world increasing bureaucratic overhead and the expansion of government is likely the real underlying goal of any social planning so... back to the drawing board
The federal government operates at a deficit. I think of the resources we give to people (welfare, food stamps, disability, etc) as being "on loan" by people who loan the government money, and by expropriating resources of American tax payers. Loans need to be paid back, either by higher taxes, inflation, population increase, or increased productivity. I don't think the first 3 are good. To increase the last one, which has been slowing (as shown in Rise And Fall Of American Growth by Gordon), most likely involves robots. I think it's less immoral to expropriate the fruits of robot labor to provide for a basic income, while the inventors/owners of the robots enjoy the rewards of their gift to humanity (through limited copyright/taxes or whatever), which is the source of my comment.

If we reduced our national outlays (say, by reducing our foreign military bases/wars/expenditures), that would be one thing, but as it stands now, we don't even have the money to pay for our existing programs that people want to scrap for UBI. In light of that, I don't agree with the idea of giving people resources simply for existing. I'm a heartless fuck.

I also don't like the combination of "free money for everyone" + mass immigration/birthright citizenship.
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l82start
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by l82start » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:33 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

The federal government operates at a deficit. I think of the resources we give to people (welfare, food stamps, disability, etc) as being "on loan" by people who loan the government money, and by expropriating resources of American tax payers. Loans need to be paid back, either by higher taxes, inflation, population increase, or increased productivity. I don't think the first 3 are good. To increase the last one, which has been slowing (as shown in Rise And Fall Of American Growth by Gordon), most likely involves robots. I think it's less immoral to expropriate the fruits of robot labor to provide for a basic income, while the inventors/owners of the robots enjoy the rewards of their gift to humanity (through limited copyright/taxes or whatever), which is the source of my comment.

If we reduced our national outlays (say, by reducing our foreign military bases/wars/expenditures), that would be one thing, but as it stands now, we don't even have the money to pay for our existing programs that people want to scrap for UBI. In light of that, I don't agree with the idea of giving people resources simply for existing. I'm a heartless fuck.

I also don't like the combination of "free money for everyone" + mass immigration/birthright citizenship.
the mass immigration and birthright citizenship have to go for sure for a UBI to even begin to have a chance to work, and the rate of the UBI needs to be solidly and irrevocably fixed to some metric to avoid the, "vote for me I will give you more money" type corruption.. i do like the idea that instead of countless overlapping redundant and incompetent agency’s handing out money with little regard for unintended consequences, this could be handled by a single office, the vast number of buildings, government pensions, rent, electricity, regulations, office supply’s, etc etc...that could be let go of would be a limited government dream. maybe we would need some robots and some reduction in our foreign adventurism to offset the deficit but both of those would be good things..
still all in all as great as it sounds it still seems a bit of a pipe dream to imagine that government could or would set up a UBI in a way that that limited its own size or dealt with all the extenuating details in a sensible manner..
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