Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

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dualstow
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am

Ah, like that machine that produces Venusian chocolate on demand, and stuff.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:54 am
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:55 pm
If everyone gets 1000/mo, rents go up 1000/mo
And if you don't believe this, see what government subsidies of college tuition have done in that arena.
You're entirely right about tuition, but this would be much broader. "Here's $1000/month to use for anything" is very different from saying "sign here and we'll give this institution $100,000".
Yes... I don't see why it would ALL go towards rent. Sure, some people would choose to allocate some of their funds towards better housing. Others would want to work less. Others might patch up their credit. Others will go out boozing more often. Some might start a business.

The reason college and healthcare are so expensive, even if I'm 100% charitable to the conservative arguments on the matter, is that the funds are directed SPECIFICALLY towards certain types of expenses and institutions.

$1,000 per month would mean very different things to different people. I think at the very least it would be extremely interesting to see how household economics would change throughout the country. I highly doubt it would be as boring as "rent just went up by $1,000." Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:13 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:54 am
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:55 pm
If everyone gets 1000/mo, rents go up 1000/mo
And if you don't believe this, see what government subsidies of college tuition have done in that arena.
You're entirely right about tuition, but this would be much broader. "Here's $1000/month to use for anything" is very different from saying "sign here and we'll give this institution $100,000".
Correct. It would have far worse effects on the economy.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Xan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:16 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 am
Hookers & blow alone are sure to take a solid chunk of that rent money...
Wouldn’t basic income wipe out, or all but wipe out, prostitution? Not the demand, but the supply.
Or maybe the answer is robots again? O0
We are a bizarre species.
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
I'm not sure that inflation would be the result, so much as redirecting a bit more of society's efforts towards producing things that people lower on the totem pole need.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:16 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:10 pm
Prostitutes can make far more than any proposal I've seen for UBI, so probably not.
And that's even if we don't consider the enormous inflationary effects of handing out "free money".
Well, maybe Elliot Spitzer-level ones.
I don’t know..how much do they cost?

Asking for a friend.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by boglerdude » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 pm

And then there's "vote for me ill increase your UBI to 1500!"
hm maybe i should go into politics.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

D1984 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:08 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:30 pm
I think we need to be at the point where robots are doing pretty much everything before we start UBI.
A modest UBI, at $1,000 or $1,100 a month for adults and $350 or $400 per minor under 18, is quite possible right now. Scott Santens did a piece on showing which programs we could cancel/cut and what taxes would be needed to finance it; I'll see if I can find it and post the link to it here.
Simonjester wrote: it was my understanding that the UBI is a replacement for the free money we hand out already, and that the cost of UBI would be more than covered by the value of the existing handouts and the vast savings in bureaucratic overhead.. therefore not inflationary.. of course in the real world increasing bureaucratic overhead and the expansion of government is likely the real underlying goal of any social planning so... back to the drawing board
The federal government operates at a deficit. I think of the resources we give to people (welfare, food stamps, disability, etc) as being "on loan" by people who loan the government money, and by expropriating resources of American tax payers. Loans need to be paid back, either by higher taxes, inflation, population increase, or increased productivity. I don't think the first 3 are good. To increase the last one, which has been slowing (as shown in Rise And Fall Of American Growth by Gordon), most likely involves robots. I think it's less immoral to expropriate the fruits of robot labor to provide for a basic income, while the inventors/owners of the robots enjoy the rewards of their gift to humanity (through limited copyright/taxes or whatever), which is the source of my comment.

If we reduced our national outlays (say, by reducing our foreign military bases/wars/expenditures), that would be one thing, but as it stands now, we don't even have the money to pay for our existing programs that people want to scrap for UBI. In light of that, I don't agree with the idea of giving people resources simply for existing. I'm a heartless fuck.

I also don't like the combination of "free money for everyone" + mass immigration/birthright citizenship.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:42 am

Simonjester wrote: the mass immigration and birthright citizenship have to go for sure for a UBI to even begin to have a chance to work, and the rate of the UBI needs to be solidly and irrevocably fixed to some metric to avoid the, "vote for me I will give you more money" type corruption.. i do like the idea that instead of countless overlapping redundant and incompetent agency’s handing out money with little regard for unintended consequences, this could be handled by a single office, the vast number of buildings, government pensions, rent, electricity, regulations, office supply’s, etc etc...that could be let go of would be a limited government dream. maybe we would need some robots and some reduction in our foreign adventurism to offset the deficit but both of those would be good things..
I agree, yes. If you're going to give away money, UBI seems better than the patchwork of various programs and bureaucracy we have now.
still all in all as great as it sounds it still seems a bit of a pipe dream to imagine that government could or would set up a UBI in a way that that limited its own size or dealt with all the extenuating details in a sensible manner..
Right. Talking about "how" to implement UBI at this point is putting the cart before the horse. Giving "loans" to people with a "negative return on investment" isn't feasible in the long run. IMO.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:18 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:58 am

I also don't like the combination of "free money for everyone" + mass immigration/birthright citizenship.
So you won’t be moving to Sweden then.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:36 pm

lol

No.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by boglerdude » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Give the folks on Skid Row UBI and it goes to the drug dealer. Thats why they're there in the first place. We need more social workers and cops before UBI. Also, invade countries that dont provide a minimum standard of living. NEOCON

https://old.reddit.com/r/neoconNWO/comm ... 8/e80dxwr/
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:32 am

boglerdude wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:34 pm
Give the folks on Skid Row UBI and it goes to the drug dealer. Thats why they're there in the first place. We need more social workers and cops before UBI.
IMO we have enough police, but we are using them inefficiently due to bad laws. Legalize and tax drugs. Modify vehicular laws and enforcement to more emulate Germany's. Those two things alone would do wonders, and taxes on American's massive drug use/enforcement costs elimination, and fines on drivers breaking the law would aid in overcoming our deficit/implementing a UBI.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by boglerdude » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:27 pm

> I think of the resources we give to people (welfare, food stamps, disability, etc) as being "on loan" by people who loan the government money, and by expropriating resources of American tax payers. Loans need to be paid back

The Fed doesnt need to be paid back, and X% of the population will always keep savings in US bonds. So, inflation...

> Modify vehicular laws and enforcement to more emulate Germany's

Explain
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by jacksonM » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:36 pm

I see that Spartacus wants to give all poor kids a $50k nest egg for a decent start in life https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... baby-bonds. Details about who would qualify as poor are sketchy. Sounded like race might be a factor from the article.

Probably cheaper in the long run than Kamala Harris' proposal to revoke the Trump tax cuts and give poor families $600/month.

But maybe we will see a Booker/Harris ticket and people can vote for both.

In the meantime we have the caravan coming up from South America to join the socialist revolution.

We live in interesting times.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:45 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:27 pm
> I think of the resources we give to people (welfare, food stamps, disability, etc) as being "on loan" by people who loan the government money, and by expropriating resources of American tax payers. Loans need to be paid back

The Fed doesnt need to be paid back, and X% of the population will always keep savings in US bonds. So, inflation...
As far as I understand it, yea. Debt that is "bought" by the Fed can be inflated away. Debt bought by Americans, Chinese, etc, needs to be paid back with inflated dollars or higher taxes at some point.
> Modify vehicular laws and enforcement to more emulate Germany's

Explain
Speeding tickets issued by cameras and by police, highly enforced. Fines for bad driving practices (like bee bopping along in the left lane on the Autobahn). Draconian speeding and drunk driving punishments (loss of license). I guess in the context of my post it's not a huge change, but I just think they work better than ours seem to.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:49 pm

France has been adopting some of the things I said I liked. Lowering speed limits, installing labor-saving radar ticketing robots, etc.
  • On July 1, Prime Minister Édouard Philippe... [lowered] the speed limit... on secondary (country) roads by 10 km/h, decreasing the limit from 90 km/h (56 mph) to 80 km/h (50 mph)
  • At about the same time came the contracts that the government decided to write with private corporations, handing the business of the state's (plainclothes) gendarmes over to their company employees, to take over the business of the mobile radars in their shiny new fleets of vehicles. (Meanwhile, other private companies have been getting similar contracts from city governments, meaning wage earners doing mostly nothing but driving up and down the city streets, while a license plate reader decides which cars' owners will be getting automatically-generated fines.)
  • More recently, the government added more gratuitous sanctions to the driver’s license point system, which is already far more punitive than that of most European countries, not least neighboring Germany's.
  • Finally, with the announcement of the gas prise rise.
The results?








Image

The French have subsequently done what they usually do, and destroyed parts of several cities in full blown riots.

Image

Image

Image

Image

LOL. Vive le France
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:55 pm

Very sad to see Paris in such a state, again.
I do like the wings of fire on that first shot. Great photography.
But, sad.

I agree with Pug. If/when it happens here, it’s going to be scary. I wonder whom I’d want for president to meet such a challenge.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:41 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:55 pm
Very sad to see Paris in such a state, again.
I do like the wings of fire on that first shot. Great photography.
But, sad.

I agree with Pug. If/when it happens here, it’s going to be scary. I wonder whom I’d want for president to meet such a challenge.
Let's hope it does not become president case/primer/powder/bullet and all their various siblings. :'(
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by moda0306 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:17 am

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:38 pm
You LOL now, but when the idiot leftist protesters here start destroying our cities, it won't be nearly as amusing. The stupidest thing Macron could have done was give in to the protesters, and that's exactly what he did. What happened to never negotiate with terrorists? Now the mobs here will be emboldened by the results there. This can't end well.
People give into terrorists all the time. Neoliberal state capitalism is essentially that on an economic level. They do it cuz Profits. If you're going to do that for Profits with foreign elites & governments but have a hard-nosed approach towards your own populations, it's clear what your agenda is...

By "your" I don't mean you, but governments and elites in-general.

But there is no marginal benefit to ones-self by joining a protest. People do it as an irrational response towards a supposed problem. Responding with a police state to change already emotionally charged incentives isn't the correct one, IMO.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:49 pm

Why isn't it happening here on a daily basis? It should be. Pug and I, living outside Chicago, see this sort of stuff every day on the news:

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/ ... o-students

Murders dropped in Chicago from ~500 something to 400 something in 2018 (as of Oct 1). Woo Hoo.

Protests, vigils, etc happen after most, but then are forgotten as the next set of violence occurs.

For comparison we had 15 soldiers killed in Afghanistan last year.

I don't understand how anyone can live in this environment day after day and why fixing it has been completely unsuccessful. How many decades has Chicago tried to improve this? And yet it continues and there is no uprising by the people affected. You've got your Mag Mile, Gold Coast, etc, but go a few short blocks west and it is a different world and this should be priority #1. Not just policing crime, but improving the situation. I don't have the answers for sure.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:19 pm

It's very hard to legislate morality. Big government throws money at problems, but in ways that tend to exacerbate problems rather than helping -- for example, incentivising more births of children into homes without fathers. Hollyweird doesn't help by making morality look passe. Everyone says that more education is the answer, but it's very hard to get people to learn if they don't want to learn, or don't have two parents in the household who create a strong environment for learning.

America is a fascinating, if sad, story of how a very strong and creative country (note I avoided the word "great", because I'm not sure that's true) developed, but along the way planted the seeds for what looks to me like its own decline should things continue (the main seed being slavery, but also greed and hedonism which of course have been problems for other uber-successful nations throughout history). I guess every "great" nation eventually declines for one reason or another.

Just some random thoughts, no answers. On a personal level, Jesus is the answer for those who will really follow him, but not many will, and he even said that. The rest choose their own means of destruction, fast or slow.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:38 pm
You LOL now, but when the idiot leftist protesters here start destroying our cities, it won't be nearly as amusing.
I takes my lulz where I can.
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Re: Universal Basic Income vs Universal Basic Assets

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:48 am

Q: Popeye, what is the secret to your longevity?

Ans.:
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 pm
I takes my lulz where I can.
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