Kavanaugh

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flyingpylon
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:53 am

Facts = Data + Interpretation + Persuasion
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am
sophie wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:35 am
When you're under a spotlight and in a powerful position, you really need to be careful of what you say.
Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am

jacksonM wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am
sophie wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:35 am
When you're under a spotlight and in a powerful position, you really need to be careful of what you say.
Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
So if someone is raped in a manner where they didn't "collect evidence," should they stay silent about it their whole lives?

She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.

An innocent Kavanaugh is a better moral position to be in (even with his awful views on the 4th amendment and unprofessional testimony) than any of the disgusting mockers on "the right," including Trump and his slimeball son. Deplorable, indeed.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:45 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
jacksonM wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am


Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
So if someone is raped in a manner where they didn't "collect evidence," should they stay silent about it their whole lives?

She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.

An innocent Kavanaugh is a better moral position to be in (even with his awful views on the 4th amendment and unprofessional testimony) than any of the disgusting mockers on "the right," including Trump and his slimeball son. Deplorable, indeed.
When the only evidence someone has is a recovered memory arising from the hippocampus 30 years after the fact, with no other corroborating evidence and other evidence that actually contradicts their memory then yes, I think they should stay silent about it before lodging an accusation to destroy someone's life. Or at least refrain from parading it in front of the whole world in the middle of a senate confirmation process.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Lonestar » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:28 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.
"Unprofessional" is subjective judgement. If he DID NOT do what he was so aggressively accused of, wouldn't a "defensive" posture be expected? Assume for a moment you have spent your entire adult life practicing law and setting as a judge on several courts. Your credentials are impeccable. All of a sudden you have a partisan group of individuals acting as a lynching party, based on sketchy, uncorroborated evidence. Under the conditions, I would not trust anyone who would not stand up and offer a scathing defense.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by pugchief » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am

Maddy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
Exactly. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am

No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:44 am

Tyler wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am
No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
+1

Excellent speech but I don't think any other senators took note, except maybe Manchin.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:01 am

pugchief wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am
Maddy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
Exactly. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
Also the admissibility of hearsay evidence. As I understand it that was what all the 22 or so people the Dems had lined up for the FBI to interview were ready to provide. Not only was it a stalling tactic but they wanted the final report to be sprinkled with "I heard somebody say this or that". They didn't get what they wanted but at least they have their talking point about how the investigation was constrained, even though according to a former FBI investigator I saw on TV, that is what they always do.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:08 am

Please read at least parts of this article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

My question to everyone is:

Do his almost certainly untruthful descriptions of some of his calendar entries constitute:

1) Lying under oath
2) You believe his descriptions or
3) He shouldn't have ever been subjected to this hearing in the first place and gets a pass because he was trying to save face?

Or something else?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by sophie » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:20 am

Tyler wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am
No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
Thank you Tyler!

Not only did my respect for Susan Collins just go up several notches, but it's pretty clear that her position has been badly misrepresented by the media. Did you catch the crazy stuff being printed now about how states should ignore Supreme Court decisions once Kavanaugh is seated on it?
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