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jacksonM
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:11 am

http://www.unz.com/imercer/christine-bl ... ppocampus/

A good article on Ms. Ford's claims about the repressed memory stored indelibly on her hippocampus for future retrieval 30 years later.

Update: I think the "hippocampus" thing is probably a half truth. With all the craziness going on in universities nowadays it's probably fair to say that the campus had a lot to do with her repressed memory. There was just no hippo involved.
Last edited by jacksonM on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:37 am

I taught a class to high-school aged kids not long ago and was struck by the extent to which young people are seemingly unable to distinguish reality from a position asserted with the object of convincing others of its truth. It seemed to be much more than a political or ideological preference; rather, they appeared to be actually unable to grasp the concept that one version of the facts might be more truthful than another. I see a frightening resemblance to that mindset in these women and their "followers."
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:39 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:37 am
I taught a class to high-school aged kids not long ago and was struck by the extent to which young people are seemingly unable to distinguish reality from a position asserted with the object of convincing others of its truth. It seemed to be much more than a political or ideological preference; rather, they appeared to be actually unable to grasp the concept that one version of the facts might be more truthful than another. I see a frightening resemblance to that mindset in these women and their "followers."
And Trump, of course. Let's not forget the most powerful human-being amongst 7 Billion.

But I agree with you... far too many people allowing their opinions to drive their digestion of facts.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:53 am

Facts = Data + Interpretation + Persuasion
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:35 am
When you're under a spotlight and in a powerful position, you really need to be careful of what you say.
Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am

jacksonM wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:35 am
When you're under a spotlight and in a powerful position, you really need to be careful of what you say.
Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
So if someone is raped in a manner where they didn't "collect evidence," should they stay silent about it their whole lives?

She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.

An innocent Kavanaugh is a better moral position to be in (even with his awful views on the 4th amendment and unprofessional testimony) than any of the disgusting mockers on "the right," including Trump and his slimeball son. Deplorable, indeed.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:45 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
jacksonM wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:02 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:49 am


Well that's generally out the window lately with Twitter (Trump, Musk, ??) and other platforms! Comments sections of most blogs are from people whose opinions are way far left and right and a lot of times are just comments no normal socially adjusted human would ever say in public.

And I'll swing back to Trump's campaign rally in Mississippi. While all his spokespeople came out and defended him that what he said about Ford was "factually" true, none would touch on HOW he mockingly said those things. Jesus, if I saw the president saying stuff like that about me on TV and seeing the people laugh and hoot it up standing all around him, children included, I would be terrified.
I can see how you would feel that way if you genuinely believed that Ms. Ford was the fragile, emotionally traumatized 15 year old girl who appeared before the senate and couldn't remember anything about the incident or provide one corroborating fact.

Among the deplorables however, she's now seen as a 51 year old adult who has a PHD in "research psychiatry" and who made the conscious choice to accuse a man of attempted rape in front of the whole world without providing a single shred of evidence. IMO She deserves to be mocked just for the fear of flying thing alone. Don't hold your breath about seeing that in an SNL skit.
So if someone is raped in a manner where they didn't "collect evidence," should they stay silent about it their whole lives?

She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.

An innocent Kavanaugh is a better moral position to be in (even with his awful views on the 4th amendment and unprofessional testimony) than any of the disgusting mockers on "the right," including Trump and his slimeball son. Deplorable, indeed.
When the only evidence someone has is a recovered memory arising from the hippocampus 30 years after the fact, with no other corroborating evidence and other evidence that actually contradicts their memory then yes, I think they should stay silent about it before lodging an accusation to destroy someone's life. Or at least refrain from parading it in front of the whole world in the middle of a senate confirmation process.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Lonestar » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:28 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases. What this really comes down to is whether he did it or not. It totally changes the nature of both her coming forward and him acting in such a defensive, unprofessional manner. The only things that don't hing on that are that democrat senators are playing games, and that masses of "the right" are willing to openly mock a woman insofar as she came forward as a sexual assault victim.
"Unprofessional" is subjective judgement. If he DID NOT do what he was so aggressively accused of, wouldn't a "defensive" posture be expected? Assume for a moment you have spent your entire adult life practicing law and setting as a judge on several courts. Your credentials are impeccable. All of a sudden you have a partisan group of individuals acting as a lynching party, based on sketchy, uncorroborated evidence. Under the conditions, I would not trust anyone who would not stand up and offer a scathing defense.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am

No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:44 am

Tyler wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am
No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
+1

Excellent speech but I don't think any other senators took note, except maybe Manchin.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:01 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am
Maddy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
Exactly. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
Also the admissibility of hearsay evidence. As I understand it that was what all the 22 or so people the Dems had lined up for the FBI to interview were ready to provide. Not only was it a stalling tactic but they wanted the final report to be sprinkled with "I heard somebody say this or that". They didn't get what they wanted but at least they have their talking point about how the investigation was constrained, even though according to a former FBI investigator I saw on TV, that is what they always do.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:08 am

Please read at least parts of this article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

My question to everyone is:

Do his almost certainly untruthful descriptions of some of his calendar entries constitute:

1) Lying under oath
2) You believe his descriptions or
3) He shouldn't have ever been subjected to this hearing in the first place and gets a pass because he was trying to save face?

Or something else?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by WiseOne » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:20 am

Tyler wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am
No matter where you fall on the spectrum of Kavanaugh opinions, you owe it to yourself to take the time to listen to Susan Collins' full speech where she outlines all of the reasons she is voting for his confirmation. Her tone, reasoning, and genuine sense of professional responsibility are a welcome breath of fresh air in this whole debacle and she definitely earned my respect. Other senators should take note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR3WajO-WwI
Thank you Tyler!

Not only did my respect for Susan Collins just go up several notches, but it's pretty clear that her position has been badly misrepresented by the media. Did you catch the crazy stuff being printed now about how states should ignore Supreme Court decisions once Kavanaugh is seated on it?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:24 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am
Maddy wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:03 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
She's not asking anyone to believe her wholeheartedly without evidence. She's just asking that her testimony be given as evidence to his character.

If he did what she claims, I think she has every right to come forward whenever she pleases.
Nobody's questioning her right to come forward. Nor has anyone denied her the opportunity to have her evidence considered. (Lordy, how much more attention could she have garnered?)

What you are actually contending, it seems to me, is that she had a right to be believed. Nobody has that right, no matter what's being alleged and no matter when the allegation is made.

Here, the timing of the revelation, the complete absence of corroboration, and the flat-out refuting of her testimony by multiple witnesses (including those she identified) bears strongly on her credibility and raises the unmistakable inference of an ulterior, political, motive. The suggestion that she is entitled, despite all that, to be believed (presumably because she is a woman and because the allegation resonates of "cultural oppression") is just nutty.
Exactly. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
This isn't a jury trial to throw a man in a cage for the rest of his life.

If that were the case I could understand all the flatulating melodrama.

This is a process (that has been neutered into mostly a faux show anyway) to put a man in one of the most powerful positions in the world. For life. When another person could easily be chosen.

Let's lose the f'kin melodrama.

Those of us who are concerned more with Kavanaugh's terrible position on executive privilege and the 4th Amendment have more clout on that argument than those who decided to care about it for a couple weeks in a very unique case.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:38 am

Senator Collins addressed that point. Moda, the video is well worth watching. You can crank it up to 2x speed. Really most of the speech isn't about the allegations but about judicial philosophy. It's interesting.

Edit: here's the full transcript:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/us/p ... naugh.html
Some argue that because this is a lifetime appointment to our highest court, the public interest requires that doubts be resolved against the nominee. Others see the public interest as embodied in our long-established tradition of affording to those accused of misconduct a presumption of innocence. In cases in which the facts are unclear, they would argue that the question should be resolved in favor of the nominee.

Mr. President, I understand both viewpoints. This debate is complicated further by the fact that the Senate confirmation process is not a trial. But certain fundamental legal principles—about due process, the presumption of innocence, and fairness—do bear on my thinking, and I cannot abandon them.

In evaluating any given claim of misconduct, we will be ill served in the long run if we abandon the presumption of innocence and fairness, tempting though it may be. We must always remember that it is when passions are most inflamed that fairness is most in jeopardy.

The presumption of innocence is relevant to the advice and consent function when an accusation departs from a nominee’s otherwise exemplary record. I worry that departing from this presumption could lead to a lack of public faith in the judiciary and would be hugely damaging to the confirmation process moving forward.

Some of the allegations levied against Judge Kavanaugh illustrate why the presumption of innocence is so important. I am thinking in particular not of the allegations raised by Professor Ford, but of the allegation that, when he was a teenager, Judge Kavanaugh drugged multiple girls and used their weakened state to facilitate gang rape. This outlandish allegation was put forth without any credible supporting evidence and simply parroted public statements of others. That such an allegation can find its way into the Supreme Court confirmation process is a stark reminder about why the presumption of innocence is so ingrained in our American consciousness.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:22 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:41 am
moda0306 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:24 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am

Exactly. Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' ?
This isn't a jury trial to throw a man in a cage for the rest of his life.

If that were the case I could understand all the flatulating melodrama.

This is a process (that has been neutered into mostly a faux show anyway) to put a man in one of the most powerful positions in the world. For life. When another person could easily be chosen.

Let's lose the f'kin melodrama.

Those of us who are concerned more with Kavanaugh's terrible position on executive privilege and the 4th Amendment have more clout on that argument than those who decided to care about it for a couple weeks in a very unique case.
So you're saying that since this isn't an actual jury trial, innocence until proven guilty doesn't apply?! Sorry, the job or its tenure is irrelevant. And, you think your position on that is more valid because of your concerns on the 4th amendment? Sorry, irrelevant again.

edit: While typing this, Xan posted the above quote from Sen. Collins, which I had not yet heard/read, and apparently she agrees with me.
Some level of evidence is probably appropriate for a Supreme Court Nomination. I wouldn't presume to know exactly what. But a few things I do know...

- Kavanaugh is terrible on the 4th Amendment.

- How the powerful treat the masses visavis the 4th amendment and executive power is millions (well, probably more) of times of more importance than how they treat one of their own (another powerful government careerist) in a job interview.

- The knuckle-dragging pro-Trump wing of "the right" is showing again what cucks to power they are... not that this is a surprise... their "anti-establishment" bonafides were pretty much nonexistent anyway. This just serves as a reminder.

This should barely be a part of the national conversation. I agree with the somewhat corny speech by Ben Sasse... This should be about drilling into the principles at stake. Those that are pretending to care about due process as it pertains to a job interview when you hear nary a peep from them on the topic otherwise unless it's their jingo-clown-fascist president being investigated are obviously just cucks to right-leaning power, not principled civil-libertarians.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:15 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:49 am
You do realize that phrases like 'knuckle dragging' that you have repeated in quite a few posts in this thread, and other phrases like it, is one of the reasons Trump is in the WH in the first place?
That's funny you would admit to a whole section of the country being so immature as to elect such a clown because some people called them names.

Many types of people get called names.

Only one group has chosen to earn their nickname by electing a stroked-out jingo-clown to head the most powerful killing machine in the history of the world as a backlash. Not just that, but defend him at every turn, no matter what ridiculous thing he does. When feminazis elect Rosie O'Donnel or Kathy Griffin to President I'll unleash a similar barrage of insults towards them.

BTW I give derogatory names to a lot of types of people. Some of my friends are knuckle-dragging trumpists. Some are feminazis. Some are establishment-left or establishment-right power-cucks who will defend anyone with the right letter behind their names. Some (usually the kindest/best ones) don't care for politics and don't like to aggressively defend slimeballs of any sort so I don't have nasty nicknames for them. Few are bitter quasi-anarchists like myself who distrust-dislike anyone who thinks they're important/powerful, but I'm working on them. ;)

As a side-car to good logic/arguments and sound facts, I find solid ad-hominem banter to actually contribute to a half-derailed conversation... not be a detriment to it. When moral outrage is being tossed around like a football over job interview norms for a powerful and anti-freedom judge, I'll feel free to use similar moralist language towards things that are actually important... such as the voting patterns of the 25% of this country who seem to only care about the civil liberties of massively powerful conservatives.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:12 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:15 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:49 am
You do realize that phrases like 'knuckle dragging' that you have repeated in quite a few posts in this thread, and other phrases like it, is one of the reasons Trump is in the WH in the first place?
That's funny you would admit to a whole section of the country being so immature as to elect such a clown because some people called them names.

Many types of people get called names.

Only one group has chosen to earn their nickname by electing a stroked-out jingo-clown to head the most powerful killing machine in the history of the world as a backlash. Not just that, but defend him at every turn, no matter what ridiculous thing he does. When feminazis elect Rosie O'Donnel or Kathy Griffin to President I'll unleash a similar barrage of insults towards them.

BTW I give derogatory names to a lot of types of people. Some of my friends are knuckle-dragging trumpists. Some are feminazis. Some are establishment-left or establishment-right power-cucks who will defend anyone with the right letter behind their names. Some (usually the kindest/best ones) don't care for politics and don't like to aggressively defend slimeballs of any sort so I don't have nasty nicknames for them. Few are bitter quasi-anarchists like myself who distrust-dislike anyone who thinks they're important/powerful, but I'm working on them. ;)

As a side-car to good logic/arguments and sound facts, I find solid ad-hominem banter to actually contribute to a half-derailed conversation... not be a detriment to it. When moral outrage is being tossed around like a football over job interview norms for a powerful and anti-freedom judge, I'll feel free to use similar moralist language towards things that are actually important... such as the voting patterns of the 25% of this country who seem to only care about the civil liberties of massively powerful conservatives.
Moda you Dorkmeister ;) , YMMV, but my experience is that labeling rarely, if ever, achieves the results intended by the labeler. Usually plain polite English works better.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:46 pm

Voting right now....
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:26 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:01 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:15 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:49 am
You do realize that phrases like 'knuckle dragging' that you have repeated in quite a few posts in this thread, and other phrases like it, is one of the reasons Trump is in the WH in the first place?
That's funny you would admit to a whole section of the country being so immature as to elect such a clown because some people called them names.

Many types of people get called names.

Only one group has chosen to earn their nickname by electing a stroked-out jingo-clown to head the most powerful killing machine in the history of the world as a backlash. Not just that, but defend him at every turn, no matter what ridiculous thing he does. When feminazis elect Rosie O'Donnel or Kathy Griffin to President I'll unleash a similar barrage of insults towards them.

BTW I give derogatory names to a lot of types of people. Some of my friends are knuckle-dragging trumpists. Some are feminazis. Some are establishment-left or establishment-right power-cucks who will defend anyone with the right letter behind their names. Some (usually the kindest/best ones) don't care for politics and don't like to aggressively defend slimeballs of any sort so I don't have nasty nicknames for them. Few are bitter quasi-anarchists like myself who distrust-dislike anyone who thinks they're important/powerful, but I'm working on them. ;)

As a side-car to good logic/arguments and sound facts, I find solid ad-hominem banter to actually contribute to a half-derailed conversation... not be a detriment to it. When moral outrage is being tossed around like a football over job interview norms for a powerful and anti-freedom judge, I'll feel free to use similar moralist language towards things that are actually important... such as the voting patterns of the 25% of this country who seem to only care about the civil liberties of massively powerful conservatives.
I'm pretty sure is not being called deplorables that pissed off middle America, it that the Elite, particularly to the left of the aisle, actually thinks of them in this way, and that they were tired of no one caring about their plight. Diversity and globalization just don't rank real high on an out of work small town laborer's list of priorities.
Well usually names do carry some actual weight of how people actually think of others. My conservative friends who've used the n-word certainly don't have egalitarian views towards race. But like I said, only one group has decided to lash out by voting for a bombastic clown.

Diversity and globalization don't help these people. But neither do corporate tax cuts and the military industrial complex. And free healthcare, tax-credits, and other safety nets sure as f'k DO help them, yet they eschew those options in favor of a bombastic clown because they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires rather than the working-class that they (and most of us) are.

But I really don't care for the culture war. I'm from a blue family in a red-as-fk county in a blue state. I shoot guns and drive a Prius. I sit in both city and rural culture a bit and I see what many others seem not to... that there IS general anxiety about the economy, because our version of capitalism is a flawed system leaving folks feel stressed as hell even when they're successful... this anxiety and alienation leads (yes) to some actual economic analysis but more-so (IMO) to them settling into their cultural resentments. It's city vs rural. Nativist vs Cosmopolitan. If we really want to get reunited around economic grounds, we'd leave that framework behind, AND align on our true battle-lines that matter of Labor Vs. Capital.

You don't even have to be for socialist or even liberal policies to see that THIS is nature of the economic dilemma we have, and when every college grad with some stock in a Roth IRA and a redneck with a towing business think they're owners of the means of production in any meaningful sense, then get in a pissing match over gun policy or religion or immigration, we're never going to get anywhere. We'll keep rearranging the deck-chairs on the titanic while the REAL owners of the world rake in more and more wealth while the world turns into ever-more a warming pile of garbage and angry cultural resentments.

Our world economy and domestic economy have both grown SO much... exponential growth into perpetuity is probably impossible on a planet with limited resources. Even if tax cuts DID work for these saps, it would be because the economy actually has to grow in size for these rural, hard-working-but-underpaid folks to have anything close to a decent life. That's unsustainable, and even if it weren't, it still says a TON more about the nature of labor interests vs capital interests than it does about the "success" of tax cuts and regulation cuts.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:04 pm

No matter what happens, I think we can all come together as Americans and agree that everything is shitty and people who don't agree with my side are dumbasses.
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Maddy
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:58 am

moda0306 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:26 pm

Diversity and globalization don't help these people. But neither do corporate tax cuts and the military industrial complex. And free healthcare, tax-credits, and other safety nets sure as f'k DO help them, yet they eschew those options in favor of a bombastic clown because they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires rather than the working-class that they (and most of us) are.

But I really don't care for the culture war. I'm from a blue family in a red-as-fk county in a blue state. I shoot guns and drive a Prius. I sit in both city and rural culture a bit and I see what many others seem not to... that there IS general anxiety about the economy, because our version of capitalism is a flawed system leaving folks feel stressed as hell even when they're successful... this anxiety and alienation leads (yes) to some actual economic analysis but more-so (IMO) to them settling into their cultural resentments. It's city vs rural. Nativist vs Cosmopolitan. If we really want to get reunited around economic grounds, we'd leave that framework behind, AND align on our true battle-lines that matter of Labor Vs. Capital.

You don't even have to be for socialist or even liberal policies to see that THIS is nature of the economic dilemma we have, and when every college grad with some stock in a Roth IRA and a redneck with a towing business think they're owners of the means of production in any meaningful sense, then get in a pissing match over gun policy or religion or immigration, we're never going to get anywhere. We'll keep rearranging the deck-chairs on the titanic while the REAL owners of the world rake in more and more wealth while the world turns into ever-more a warming pile of garbage and angry cultural resentments.

Our world economy and domestic economy have both grown SO much... exponential growth into perpetuity is probably impossible on a planet with limited resources. Even if tax cuts DID work for these saps, it would be because the economy actually has to grow in size for these rural, hard-working-but-underpaid folks to have anything close to a decent life. That's unsustainable, and even if it weren't, it still says a TON more about the nature of labor interests vs capital interests than it does about the "success" of tax cuts and regulation cuts.
I doubt the "redneck with a towing business" gives much thought to whether or not he's a meaningful owner of the means of production. His very real accomplishments in life are not a pitiful joke, as they apparently are to you. His choice of job and lifestyle may well represent considered decisions about how best to spend his 90-some years on this planet. His rejection of free health care and social safety nets just might reflect a principled set of values, and not ignorance or stupidity. In fact, I'll give you ten-to-one odds he's a lot happier with his life than you are with yours. Just sayin' (as one of those fuzzy-headed women who are too oppressed to understand how bad they have it).
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:41 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:04 pm
No matter what happens, I think we can all come together as Americans and agree that everything is shitty and people who don't agree with my side are dumbasses.
I don't remember where I saw it but some article I was reading talked about how Americans no longer agree on a "shared version of reality" or something like that.

Probably never saw that more clearly than listening to Schumer saying that this nomination will go down as the saddest chapter in the history of the U.S. senate. Funny thing is McConnell was saying the exact same thing but for completely opposite reasons.

I have no doubt that on the left the narrative will continue that the Republicans put an attempted rapist on the high court by covering up the evidence against him and not allowing women to speak "their truth". The right will continue to believe that the Dems used dishonest smear tactics.

I happen to agree with the right on this one but I don't see those on the left as "dumbasses". I think it's a lot more sinister than that and find it rather scary.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Benko » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:02 am

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:41 am
.

I have no doubt that on the left the narrative will continue that the Republicans put an attempted rapist on the high court by covering up the evidence against him and not allowing women to speak "their truth". The right will continue to believe that the Dems used dishonest smear tactics.

I happen to agree with the right on this one but I don't see those on the left as "dumbasses". I think it's a lot more sinister than that and find it rather scary.
Everyone is entitled to their own ideas, but what methods do you use to get them implemented? Only one side has said “by any means necessary”, only one side has Congress critters advocating harassing their political adversaries eg in restaraunts, only one side has a group (antifa) routinely using violence.

Hardball politics e.g. Merick garland besides following the “Biden rule” ain’t the same as what happened to Kavanaugh.
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