Kavanaugh

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Lonestar
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Lonestar » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am

moda0306 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:08 pm
So Maddy are you sickened by the allegations if they are true?

Pushed into a room... held down... hand over mouth... friend turned music up sobody can here?

Or are you just sickened by folks who oppose your preferred political outcome?

They might not be true. But apparently you're in the Don Jr camp of openly ridiculing a potential rape victim to get a preferred judicial nominee.

Classy.
Personally, I'm sickened by the fact that the accuser(s) do not have the courage to come forward promptly and testify before the selection committee and the accused. Why all the demands by Dr. Ford as to the timing and the process of her testifying?

If there is a legitimate accusation here, there is no reason it should not have been made weeks ago.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am

Lonestar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am
moda0306 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:08 pm
So Maddy are you sickened by the allegations if they are true?

Pushed into a room... held down... hand over mouth... friend turned music up sobody can here?

Or are you just sickened by folks who oppose your preferred political outcome?

They might not be true. But apparently you're in the Don Jr camp of openly ridiculing a potential rape victim to get a preferred judicial nominee.

Classy.
Personally, I'm sickened by the fact that the accuser(s) do not have the courage to come forward promptly and testify before the selection committee and the accused. Why all the demands by Dr. Ford as to the timing and the process of her testifying?

If there is a legitimate accusation here, there is no reason it should not have been made weeks ago.
I've never been "sickened" by someone not doing what it takes courage to do. That's the thing about courage... not many of us have it, therefore we usually understand when it's not employed... not sickened.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Lonestar » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:12 am

moda0306 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am
Lonestar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am
moda0306 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:08 pm
So Maddy are you sickened by the allegations if they are true?

Pushed into a room... held down... hand over mouth... friend turned music up sobody can here?

Or are you just sickened by folks who oppose your preferred political outcome?

They might not be true. But apparently you're in the Don Jr camp of openly ridiculing a potential rape victim to get a preferred judicial nominee.

Classy.
Personally, I'm sickened by the fact that the accuser(s) do not have the courage to come forward promptly and testify before the selection committee and the accused. Why all the demands by Dr. Ford as to the timing and the process of her testifying?

If there is a legitimate accusation here, there is no reason it should not have been made weeks ago.
I've never been "sickened" by someone not doing what it takes courage to do. That's the thing about courage... not many of us have it, therefore we usually understand when it's not employed... not sickened.
If one has the "courage" to make an allegation that will dramatically affect the life of another individual, it appears the accuser should possess at minimum the courage to stand up to appropriate questioning. I'm sorry but I just can't understand why, if you have been through a life altering experience, and it is that important to you that you share it, you would not want to face the person that has caused you this misery and tell them and the rest of the world how you feel.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:05 am

Lonestar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:12 am
moda0306 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am
Lonestar wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am


Personally, I'm sickened by the fact that the accuser(s) do not have the courage to come forward promptly and testify before the selection committee and the accused. Why all the demands by Dr. Ford as to the timing and the process of her testifying?

If there is a legitimate accusation here, there is no reason it should not have been made weeks ago.
I've never been "sickened" by someone not doing what it takes courage to do. That's the thing about courage... not many of us have it, therefore we usually understand when it's not employed... not sickened.
If one has the "courage" to make an allegation that will dramatically affect the life of another individual, it appears the accuser should possess at minimum the courage to stand up to appropriate questioning. I'm sorry but I just can't understand why, if you have been through a life altering experience, and it is that important to you that you share it, you would not want to face the person that has caused you this misery and tell them and the rest of the world how you feel.
Not understanding how a sexual assault victim would want to respond is a very different position than being "sickened" by her waiting. If it were your daughter, or sister, and she wanted people to know, but it took her decades to be comfortable with it, and was reluctant to be grilled by senators, would you be "sickened" by her?

And it sounds like she's testifying this week... so I think a lot of this fuss about willingness to speak to congress is moot.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:50 pm

So much to me has to do with the mindset after the event.

Let's say again that he did commit this, while drunk, and even the second one alleged at Yale.

Did he then go on to become a Cosby or Weinstein, and fantasize about overpowering women and taking advantage and do it more?

It doesn't seem like it. I would bet, if he remembers the event(s) seconds/minutes/years later that he hopefully wass shaking his head thinking about what a stupid, stupid thing it was to do, esp. having two young girls of his own.

It doesn't excuse it, because I know I would never have done similar without consent, so there is that little bit of doubt about what in his character caused him to go that far (with his hand over her mouth).

At this point, I'm sure he'd be happy to go back to his federal judgeship and wish he was never nominated.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Just saw a local news item on Cody Wilson, the 3D-printed-gun-plan guy, who happens to be from here. It said they had arrested him in Taiwan and dragged him back to Houston.

This was a starting point for a piece that described how US Marshals track down people they've been asked to help locate.

How useless is that! What about the pattern of people who are "inconvenient" suddenly having sexual assault allegations against them? What about investigating the charges? (For the record I have no idea of the details; maybe they're true and maybe they're not.)

It's sexual assault that's keeping Julian Assange a prisoner. Now it just so happens that the person who could make attacks on the 2nd amendment utterly obsolete is, you guessed it, a sexual assaulter! And of course the person who could overturn Roe is, undoubtedly, a sexual assaulter.

It's just all so convenient.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:55 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:38 pm
Just saw a local news item on Cody Wilson, the 3D-printed-gun-plan guy, who happens to be from here. It said they had arrested him in Taiwan and dragged him back to Houston.

This was a starting point for a piece that described how US Marshals track down people they've been asked to help locate.

How useless is that! What about the pattern of people who are "inconvenient" suddenly having sexual assault allegations against them? What about investigating the charges? (For the record I have no idea of the details; maybe they're true and maybe they're not.)

It's sexual assault that's keeping Julian Assange a prisoner. Now it just so happens that the person who could make attacks on the 2nd amendment utterly obsolete is, you guessed it, a sexual assaulter! And of course the person who could overturn Roe is, undoubtedly, a sexual assaulter.

It's just all so convenient.
Obviously, any sort of unverifiable allegation can seem convenient, but citizens under the thumb of a corrupt justice system with actual threat of jail time is in a different moral universe than a part-of and cheerleader-for our ridiculous criminal justice system at NO risk of jail time but at partial risk of a promotion due to an allegation.

In-fact, the story of Julian Assange should be a warning bell AGAINST snakes like Kavanaugh and the criminal-justice elite in our country continuing to perpetuate corrupt, violent executive power... not a reason to be extra skeptical of women accusing men of rape and maybe not promoting powerful statists when they have allegations.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:10 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:53 pm
I'm still officially open minded on this, but it's not looking real good for Kavanaugh. The second woman appears to have many classmates backing her claims. I haven't heard much about Avenatti's client/accuser yet.

A few other thoughts:
1. Gorsuch managed to be confirmed quite easily. So either Soros was on vacation that month, or maybe there really isn't a vast left-wing conspiracy trying to derail all GOP nominees.

2. Garland didn't get a vote at all, and as far as I know he wasn't accused of assaulting anyone.

3. Kavanaugh was very concerned about Bill Clinton's dalliances, and was possibly more than a little obsessed with Lewinsky's privates. It almost makes me believe in karma:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/p ... edirect=on
Yeah the fact that Obama lost an entire nomination shows the dems really aren't playing any sort of nuclear hardball.

Is it really so hard to see? These careerists on "the left" don't really care who gets nominated/confirmed. They do their part in the dog and pony show to rile up their base, and confirm another threat to the 4th amendment and proponent of permanent war.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:31 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:53 pm
I'm still officially open minded on this, but it's not looking real good for Kavanaugh. The second woman appears to have many classmates backing her claims. I haven't heard much about Avenatti's client/accuser yet.
Link
  • "Deborah Ramirez, who is fifty-three, attended Yale with Kavanaugh [in 1983]."
  • "her memories contained gaps..."
  • "she had been drinking at the time of the alleged incident." [she was playing a drinking game and got "quickly inebriated"]
  • "she was reluctant to characterize Kavanaugh’s role in the alleged incident with certainty"
  • "After six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, Ramirez said that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say..."
  • "She recalled another male student shouting about the incident. “Somebody yelled down the hall, ‘Brett Kavanaugh just put his penis in Debbie’s face,’ ” she said. “It was his full name. I don’t think it was just ‘Brett.’ "
  • "Ramirez acknowledged that there are significant gaps in her memories of the evening"
One of the male classmates who Ramirez said egged on Kavanaugh denied any memory of the party. “I don’t think Brett would flash himself to Debbie, or anyone, for that matter,” he said. Asked why he thought Ramirez was making the allegation, he responded, “I have no idea.” The other male classmate who Ramirez said was involved in the incident commented, “I have zero recollection.”
In a statement, two of those male classmates who Ramirez alleged were involved in the incident, the wife of a third male student she said was involved, and one other classmate, Dan Murphy, disputed Ramirez’s account of events: “We were the people closest to Brett Kavanaugh during his first year at Yale. He was a roommate to some of us, and we spent a great deal of time with him, including in the dorm where this incident allegedly took place. Some of us were also friends with Debbie Ramirez during and after her time at Yale. We can say with confidence that if the incident Debbie alleges ever occurred, we would have seen or heard about it—and we did not. The behavior she describes would be completely out of character for Brett. In addition, some of us knew Debbie long after Yale, and she never described this incident until Brett’s Supreme Court nomination was pending. Editors from the New Yorker contacted some of us because we are the people who would know the truth, and we told them that we never saw or heard about this.”
Two students who initially signed the statement, Louisa Garry and Dino Ewing, approached The New Yorker after the publication of this article and asked that their names be removed from it. “I never saw or heard anything like this,” Garry said. “But I cannot dispute Ramirez’s allegations, as I was not present.” Ewing also said he had no direct knowledge of the allegation and considered it out of character for Kavanaugh
Has nobody read Witness For The Defense?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by dualstow » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:39 pm

Uh oh, 3rd accuser now.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by dualstow » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:01 pm

P.S. Andrew Sullivan can write.
And so it seems that Kavanaugh is either a perfect exemplar of judicial expertise and impeccable moral conduct, or he is a lying rapist determined to destroy and control the lives of all women. Ghomeshi is evil, and granting any space for such a monster to defend or account for himself is itself an act of oppression, which must be shamed and punished. Those appear to be our choices, ladies and gentlemen, in this particular polarization cycle. There is little nuance in these battles and absolutely no mercy for anyone unlucky enough to get caught up in their swirling vortex. This is what our culture is driving us toward, and it’s a culture where each moment of conflict galvanizes and tribalizes us still further, in what seems like an endlessly repeating loop of resentment, righteousness, and revenge
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... aries.html
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:11 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:39 pm
Uh oh, 3rd accuser now.
Even if you're generally inclined to believe the accuser I think they jumped the shark on this one.

Politics sucks and leaves nothing but ruin in its wake.
Last edited by Tyler on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:27 pm

And so it seems that Kavanaugh is either a perfect exemplar of judicial expertise and impeccable moral conduct, or he is a lying rapist determined to destroy and control the lives of all women. Ghomeshi is evil, and granting any space for such a monster to defend or account for himself is itself an act of oppression, which must be shamed and punished. Those appear to be our choices, ladies and gentlemen, in this particular polarization cycle. There is little nuance in these battles and absolutely no mercy for anyone unlucky enough to get caught up in their swirling vortex. This is what our culture is driving us toward, and it’s a culture where each moment of conflict galvanizes and tribalizes us still further, in what seems like an endlessly repeating loop of resentment, righteousness, and revenge
And so it is that the democrat party either wins everything on the table or is taken down once and for all, along with every last shred of credibility it managed to hold on to. There's only one reason why a party, or a gambler, for that matter, takes those odds.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:12 pm

7 questions about the avenatti-swetnick story...

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/s ... ick-story/

I wonder if it might be possibly getting to the point that even some people with integrity on the left are going to start saying this is getting too ridiculous. But I won't hold my breath.

I think this whole fiasco is helping to show how/why Donald Trump got elected. Unlike most Republicans he seems to know that if you want to defeat the democrats you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. They play for keeps.

If the Republicans give in to these tactics and let the democrats win and choose a nominee more to their liking, then all I have to say is what good is it to vote for Republicans? I hadn't done so for about 12 years until I voted for Trump but I suspect it will be the last time ever if the Republicans can't stand up against this. Might as well let the democrats run the government because it looks like they are going to do it any way, no matter what.
Last edited by jacksonM on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:17 pm

"Senator Hirono has gone further and told half the citizenry to “shut up” solely because they are male."

LOL. No.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:41 pm

The accusations are getting more extreme as they go on: drunken teenage groping ---> sticking his dick in someone's face during drinking games in a dorm room ---> masterminding a gang-rape-gang. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary any evidence. I'm guessing if these are true they should be trivial to prove.

But...

"Unlike two other women who have accused Judge Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct, one who went to college with him and another who went to a sister high school, Ms. Swetnick offered no explanation in her statement of how she came to attend the same parties, nor did she identify other people who could verify her account." link

they're learning.

Serious questions: when it comes to your attention that a group of boys is drugging girls and gang raping them, do you generally keep that a secret? Do you keep going to parties with them? Do you not keep an eagle-fucking-eye on your drink so the gang rapists can't drug you?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:11 pm

"She claims in her declaration that Kavanugh was “verbally abusive toward girls,” was a “mean drunk” and would “spike” the “punch” at high school house parties so he and his friends could take advantage of girls. Swetnick adds that she remembers seeing Kavanaugh and other boys lined up outside a room at a party waiting for their “turn” with an inebriated girl."

As I noted in the post that started this topic, I knew a college guy who was also a mean drunk. And one time, very specifically, he and other friends were out drinking while I went to bed early (in the dorm). Sometime later that night, the door opens to laughter and something is dumped into his bed below mine. Very nearsighted, I tried to find my glasses and my eyes took in a passed out, completely naked college girl in the bed.

I have no idea what happened to her before or after. I do not recall who she was or how she got out of the room.

But I have firsthand experience with guys who are straight as a fucking arrow sober, and do weird, bad shit when they are drunk.

So now there are three. What if in a week there are a few more, and by that point they've voted him onto the court? What then? Will these politicians turn around and impeach him?

Is there a critical mass of women that change this from a vast left wing conspiracy to oh shit, maybe he did do these things?

Just asking.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:41 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:11 pm
As I noted in the post that started this topic, I knew a college guy who was also a mean drunk. And one time, very specifically, he and other friends were out drinking while I went to bed early (in the dorm). Sometime later that night, the door opens to laughter and something is dumped into his bed below mine. Very nearsighted, I tried to find my glasses and my eyes took in a passed out, completely naked college girl in the bed.

I have no idea what happened to her before or after. I do not recall who she was or how she got out of the room.

But I have firsthand experience with guys who are straight as a fucking arrow sober, and do weird, bad shit when they are drunk.
Why would you say that bad shit happened? More to the story?
So now there are three. What if in a week there are a few more, and by that point they've voted him onto the court? What then? Will these politicians turn around and impeach him?

Is there a critical mass of women that change this from a vast left wing conspiracy to oh shit, maybe he did do these things?

Just asking.
My opinion is that (if we assume the worst about all the incidents) if they wanted justice, they should have accused him right after it happened, when there was (presumably) evidence, when people had fresh memories, and when the justice system had a chance in hell of getting a rapist off the streets. I get that it can be tough for victims of sex crimes to do that, but it's necessary and moral.

I think that the #metoo trend has prepared the battlefield enough so that if you get enough women to accuse, you can bring about whatever you want. So yea, I think it's plausible that if women keep accusing him, the politicians will try, try again. Maybe one party begins asking the other which judge will be acceptable so as to avoid a Mutually Assured 'Metoo-Madness-Activated Recollection/Yarn, or MAMMARY for short.

You really didn't need more than one, provided she could prove it.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:00 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:41 pm

Why would you say that bad shit happened? More to the story?
Isn't dropping a naked passed out drunk girl into some male's dorm room bad enough shit? You think they just found her passed out AND naked?

I don't want to know. I have a daughter at college right now.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:08 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:00 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:41 pm

Why would you say that bad shit happened? More to the story?
I don't want to know. I have a daughter at college right now.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:11 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:41 pm
My opinion is that (if we assume the worst about all the incidents) if they wanted justice, they should have accused him right after it happened, when there was (presumably) evidence, when people had fresh memories, and when the justice system had a chance in hell of getting a rapist off the streets. I get that it can be tough for victims of sex crimes to do that, but it's necessary and moral.
According to that link I shared, she was either 18 or 19 and the boys were 15 or 16. So maybe she didn't go to the police for fear of getting charged with contributing to the delinquency of minors.

Do you know any 18 or 19 year old girls who like to party with boys who are 15 or 16? I was never much of a party animal but what I remember from when I was 18-21 is that young teenage girls in high school had the hots for older guys like me. Don't remember the other way around at all, but, maybe times have changed. And why did she keep attending for at least 10 of these parties, knowing this was happening?

Does any of this sound remotely plausible?

This lady may now have stepped in it big time. Kavanaugh probably will have no grounding to sue for defamation as a public figure and it sounds like he's not the kind of person who would do it any way. The other guy, Mr. Judge, on the other hand - maybe that's another story.

And based on what I've read there is no statute of limitation on these crimes in the state where they occurred so why not go ahead and file a police report?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:35 pm

If any of you guys are watching the hearings today, I cannot now imagine that he won't be confirmed, after only 10 minutes of watching.

She was believable.

But so is he. Tough to watch a guy my age cry when talking about his family.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:19 pm

This would be a good moment to declare that I have lost all confidence in the American system of government, if I hadn't been saying that for years.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:19 pm
This would be a good moment to declare that I have lost all confidence in the American system of government, if I hadn't been saying that for years.
I was also thinking to myself that this fiasco is about the last straw for me and it's time to tune out all things political for the rest of my life. It's just getting too painful to watch in my old age.

And I still might end up doing that but I have to ask myself isn't that exactly what they want me to do?

And who are THEY exactly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdn3O6aaMNc
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:50 pm

I generally don't like Lindsey Graham, but he just gave a great oratory.
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