Kavanaugh

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Mountaineer
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:33 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:29 pm
I'd like to ask one hypothetical question.

Let's assume her claim is beyond a doubt proven true. That he did force his body on her, and put his hand over her mouth to prevent screaming from being heard, and was rip-roaring drunk. When he was 17, 30+ years ago.

Who thinks that is disqualifying vs. not?
Those who are not for a textual interpretation of the Constitution and don't give a rip about what our founding fathers wrote in all the papers preceeding the Declaration, Articles of Confederation and the Constitution (as ratified and amended).
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:37 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:29 pm
I'd like to ask one hypothetical question.

Let's assume her claim is beyond a doubt proven true. That he did force his body on her, and put his hand over her mouth to prevent screaming from being heard, and was rip-roaring drunk. When he was 17, 30+ years ago.

Who thinks that is disqualifying vs. not?
I don't know that that's an easy question to answer. At this point it might well be moot: my understanding is that he has categorically denied that anything like this took place. If he lied when denying it, then that's probably disqualifying.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by barrett » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:41 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:29 pm
I'd like to ask one hypothetical question.

Let's assume her claim is beyond a doubt proven true. That he did force his body on her, and put his hand over her mouth to prevent screaming from being heard, and was rip-roaring drunk. When he was 17, 30+ years ago.

Who thinks that is disqualifying vs. not?
Disqualifying, yes. I mean that is attempted rape or something awfully close to it. If it's not disqualifying then we're on a very slippery slope. I mean what if it's true but it was only ten years ago? I don't see that being drunk gives anyone any kind of free pass to do anything. Its not as if being drunk can be blamed on someone else.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:29 pm
I'd like to ask one hypothetical question.

Let's assume her claim is beyond a doubt proven true. That he did force his body on her, and put his hand over her mouth to prevent screaming from being heard, and was rip-roaring drunk. When he was 17, 30+ years ago.

Who thinks that is disqualifying vs. not?
It sounds to me like a young person who let his hormones and the alcohol get the better of him for a brief few moments (hard to believe that such a thing could happen to someone who should be fully mature and developed at age 17), and then thankfully for all parties, either he came to his senses or his friend playfully intervened. Do you really think that one or two 17 year old males could not overpower and rape a 15 year old girl if they really wanted to? The fact that they didn't carry the act through to completion suggests that there was no actual intent to do so.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:01 pm

Crazy. There are so many ways to interpret that moment.

Was her screaming sort of a loud bashful, smiling, "Oh, stop it..." and a playful smiling placing of his hand over her mouth and then his friend jumping on top of everyone...

or something more sinister?

We'll never know.

Now to take Kavanaugh's side. If he did not do this in any manner, or it is being completely mis-remembered, damn, she just put a stain on what seems to be a good man, family and career.

Like Ocho said earlier on, no winners here.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:32 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:10 pm
I did all kinds of stupid things when I was in high school and college that make me cringe now, but I was a stupid teen with apparently little sense. The thought that this stupidity would affect my ability to do my job now is ridiculous.
Yeah.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:57 am

Desert wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:34 am
Interesting post, moda.

Purely for humor value, I saw an article that Ted Cruz is telling voters that his opponent intends to eliminate barbecue if elected. Now that could definitely kick off Civil War II!

(I haven't checked the accuracy of said article, I just found the idea pretty humorous. Dirty commie bastards are comin' fer our brisket!)
Man... while I think how factory farm animals are treated is one of the biggest modern moral issues, if you come for my BBQ you'll see me well-armed and on the side of the knuckle-dragging Trumpists. :)

In all seriousness though... Ted Cruz needs to whither away into illegitimacy.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by ochotona » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:05 am

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:57 am
Desert wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:34 am
Interesting post, moda.

Purely for humor value, I saw an article that Ted Cruz is telling voters that his opponent intends to eliminate barbecue if elected. Now that could definitely kick off Civil War II!

(I haven't checked the accuracy of said article, I just found the idea pretty humorous. Dirty commie bastards are comin' fer our brisket!)
Man... while I think how factory farm animals are treated is one of the biggest modern moral issues, if you come for my BBQ you'll see me well-armed and on the side of the knuckle-dragging Trumpists. :)

In all seriousness though... Ted Cruz needs to whither away into illegitimacy.
Houston is the most diverse metro area in the Nation, more so than NYC even. Tons of us Americans of Asians ancestry here, I've been eating Tofu since I was a toddler. For him to make Tofu jokes... well, it's bordering on fried chicken, watermelon, loose shoes, and a warm place to take a dump kind of talk. It's tribal signaling, and it stinks.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:06 am

The whole thing is such an obvious political hit job that it's difficult to take it seriously.

Kavanaugh's opponents are not really interested in "justice", they are simply trying to create enough chaos for the nomination to be withdrawn.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:06 am

Desert wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:14 am
I agree. It's definitely disqualifying, if true. This isn't a trial, it's an evaluation process for one of the most important government positions in existence. There are other qualified conservative judges to select from if Kavanaugh doesn't work out.
I hear what you're saying, but personally I think that believing there's any conservative judge out there that the "Resistance" won't similarly attempt to derail at all costs is naive. Both the timing of the accusations and the strange string of delaying tactics in hearing the accuser's testimony indicate that this really has nothing to do with a genuine pursuit of justice. It's all about delay and claiming a scalp in the process.

Frankly, I think giving into the pressure to pull Kavanaugh based on a completely unsubstantiated accusation only corrupts our government even further. I fully support Dr. Ford in having her voice heard swiftly and under oath. No delays, and no games. If her testimony is credible and stands up to scrutiny, then find another nominee. If not, then feel bad for her but move on with the nomination because innocent people deserve the benefit of the doubt. And if she's caught lying for political purposes, prosecute her for perjury and/or sue her for libel. False political stunts harm all women who deal with real sexual assault. And as a parallel path, I think the Senate should open an ethics investigation into Feinstein to determine why exactly she sat on this information for so long.

And no matter what happens after this, hold all politicians of both parties to the same standard they apply to Kavanaugh. There will be no quicker way to clean out Congress. For starters, how about eliminating the congressional fund for sexual harassment payouts and name every congressman who has benefited from it. I'm sure we'd all love to hear similar public testimony from every man and woman our elected leaders have provably mistreated.

Man, the more I think about the hypocrisy of the whole thing the more it frustrates me.
Last edited by Tyler on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:46 am

Ditto, Desert and Tyler.

They haven't gotten rid of that taxpayer funded harassment fund yet? Really. Wow. Faith in government even lower now.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/co ... fdcc555eaf
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:13 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:07 pm
Tyler wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:06 am
I hear what you're saying, but personally I think that believing there's any conservative judge out there that the "Resistance" won't similarly attempt to derail at all costs is naive. Both the timing of the accusations and the strange string of delaying tactics in hearing the accuser's testimony indicate that this really has nothing to do with a genuine pursuit of justice. It's all about delay and claiming a scalp in the process.
This ^.

Desert wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:14 am
The goal of this appointment (and indeed the reason so many Evangelicals held their noses and voted for Trump) is to overturn Roe v Wade. With that goal, it would be very good to have either a woman or a man not suspected of sexual assault in that seat. It's going to be a very rough time in the country, and we don't need that distraction while the abortion battle rages.
Maybe I'm naive, or misinformed, but I thought Roe v Wade was considered settled law in this country.
That's the thing about the Supreme Court: they can change settled law.

Well, they can change previous interpretations. Since abortion was enshrined as a right not in any law, not in any document, not by any state, and not by any vote, it can be overturned just as easily as it was invented. That it, by five people agreeing to.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:51 pm

Roe v Wade is based on the constitutional "right to privacy", which the founders certainly never contemplated would be the foundation for the right to have abortions.

If Roe v Wade were overturned, then abortion would become a state-by-state decision, which the founders certainly would have been in favor of.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:04 pm

Desert wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:36 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:13 pm

That's the thing about the Supreme Court: they can change settled law.

Well, they can change previous interpretations. Since abortion was enshrined as a right not in any law, not in any document, not by any state, and not by any vote, it can be overturned just as easily as it was invented. That it, by five people agreeing to.
This post is worth re-reading a few times.
Sober. If you're into that kind of thing.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:52 am

It's amazing how the interpretation of events changes to fit the mood of the day. Remember Anita Hill describing how Justice Thomas cracked a joke, in the company of a whole group of law clerks, about there being a pubic hair on his coke? It didn't take a lot of imagination--then or now--to picture the roar of laughter that elicited. Decades later, she's traumatized by it. I feel rather sickened by this whole thing--not by the allegations but by the "little girl victim" behavior that these grown up women revert to when they want something.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:59 am

Maddy wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:52 am
It's amazing how the interpretation of events changes to fit the mood of the day. Remember Anita Hill describing how Justice Thomas cracked a joke, in the company of a whole group of law clerks, about there being a pubic hair on his coke? It didn't take a lot of imagination--then or now--to picture the roar of laughter that elicited. Decades later, she's traumatized by it. I feel rather sickened by this whole thing--not by the allegations but by the "little girl victim" behavior that these grown up women revert to when they want something.
So if true you aren't sickened by the allegations, if they are true?

And what do you think she wants? Besides death threats and public shaming by 30% of the population, that is?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:49 am

moda0306 wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:59 am
And what do you think she wants? Besides death threats and public shaming by 30% of the population, that is?
I don't pretend to understand, but from Emma Sulkowicz to Crystal Mangum to "Jackie" at UVA, there are plenty of examples of women who falsely accuse men of sexual assault for a variety of reasons. In this case, politics and money (if you don't think massive amounts aren't being spent on this battle you're kidding yourself -- even the protesters are being paid) rank high on the list of possible motivations.

To be clear, I have an open mind and am willing to be convinced something did happen. Truth wins out. But the idea that we must trust all accusers without question because "why would they lie?" is dangerously blind to the flawed human condition and is not how justice works in this country.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:26 pm

Public shaming? Because in this society (particularly within her peer group) chastity is such a sacrosanct value?

Seems that this woman has just been given more time to "decide" whether or not to pursue her allegations. "Decide?" Gee, it didn't take much deliberation on her part to pop the cork. Sorry, but this is just plain over the top.

Query whether she toyed with Kavanaugh the same way she's toying with the public. "Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Maybe I just need a little push."
Last edited by Maddy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kbg » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:30 pm

Sometimes I wonder if things are set up just to serve as a “rally point”for political groups regardless of what the end result turns out to be.

This event will serve that purpose for both sides. The tribal talking points have all been established and the believers will believe convinced of the righteousness of their cause.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:08 pm

So Maddy are you sickened by the allegations if they are true?

Pushed into a room... held down... hand over mouth... friend turned music up sobody can here?

Or are you just sickened by folks who oppose your preferred political outcome?

They might not be true. But apparently you're in the Don Jr camp of openly ridiculing a potential rape victim to get a preferred judicial nominee.

Classy.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:23 am

Remember that Sen. Feinstein has had this information, which was subsequently passed on to the FBI, since July. There is no chance in hell that this matter has not been investigated from top to bottom since that time. And the result: Absolutely nothing in the way of corroboration, and not even a credible story.

If this woman's unsubstantiated allegations alone are worthy of being taken at face value, aren't we obligated to give similar regard to the other allegations that have been made? Say, for example, this:

https://brassballs.blog/home/christine- ... holas-deak

And this:

https://beforeitsnews.com/v3/politics/2018/3026017.html

Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, but as long as this matter is being judged on allegations, I think they all should be considered.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by WiseOne » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:54 am

As a woman who works in a place that is classic "old boy network", has gone through every kind of discrimination there is, and (yes) was once groped up at a drunken frat party in college, I think these allegations trivialize what is true sexual violence. It's also symptomatic of our times, where even a politically incorrect comment is enough to get you fired from a job, and we are starting to see rules aimed at regulating thought that are getting way too close to the ideals of "1984". I get to find out more of that next week at a mandatory training session. Oh, I can't wait. It's becoming an "everyone is either a victim or a perpetrator at any given moment in time" mentality. And the roles can switch at a moment's notice.

As far as this goes...given the precedent set by Clarence Thomas, I expect the nomination will go through. Thomas was flat out unqualified for the position and the accusations against him showed a long-term pattern of inappropriate workplace behavior - which is far more relevant. In contrast, Kavanaugh is one of the best candidates I can remember, judging from his credentials plus statements from recent court decisions. Hopefully, reason will prevail, that is if there is any of that left inside the Beltway.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:06 am

They're going to force you to sit through a training session designed to publicly cast you and your fellow female colleagues as fragile little girls whose vulnerabilities require understanding and intervention? Sounds discriminatory to me.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by dualstow » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:41 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:54 am
...the ideals of "1984". I get to find out more of that next week at a mandatory training session. Oh, I can't wait. It's becoming an "everyone is either a victim or a perpetrator at any given moment in time" mentality. And the roles can switch at a moment's notice.
Give us a full report!
Well, it certainly seems to be going that way in schools, victim and perpetrator.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:21 pm

https://fabiusmaximus.com/2018/09/23/fa ... re-common/

The thrill trust is gone

The trust is gone away
The trust is gone baby
The trust is gone away
You know you done me wrong baby
And you'll be sorry someday
The trust is gone

It's gone away from me
The trust is gone baby
The trust is gone away from me
Although, I'll still live on
But so lonely I'll be
The trust is gone

I'm free now baby
I'm free from your spell
Free, free, free now
Baby I'm free from your spell
And now that it's over
All I can do is wish you well

Image
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