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Cortopassi
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Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:35 am

I can't believe I am the first one (??) to put up this topic.

Reading some Fox news article comments about the latest allegation by the woman when they were teenagers leaves me little hope for humanity and uniting of the American people anytime soon.

You probably already formed an opinion of my position from that one sentence.

But I can see it both ways.

--Sure, doing it at the last minute was a ploy most likely.
--I would never run for office simply because of the worry that some of the stupid things I did as a teenager would come out, and I personally could not with a straight face deny them.
--However, even on the occasions I had too much to drink, never, ever, would I have done to a girl what Kavanaugh is alleged to have done
--So does that mean it was one stupid act, or is there some deeper concern here about him?

I recall a friend in college who was the nicest guy on the surface. However, get some alcohol in him, and he never had a good word to say about anyone or anything. Scary the negativity that was inside.

Does alcohol bring out your true nature?

Lots of questions!
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ochotona
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by ochotona » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:56 am

This is why most people don't want to run for office.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:31 am

I have a darker view of human nature, because I did things to girls as a teenager that were probably worse, all things considered, than what Kavanaugh is alleged to have done, and I can't even blame alcohol, just hormones and selfishness. With age has come better control of both of those things, and now I can comfortably say that I would have no trouble confirming myself to be a supreme court justice.

So, in my view, it's silly to consider things like this done as a teenager as a reason not to confirm him. Of course, if he was accused of something much more horrendous done as a teenager, then that would change things, but in that case I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made it to where he is in life.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by ochotona » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:19 am

It probably would have been better, ironically, if he'd been charged as a minor, if convicted the records would be sealed, right? But maybe he was over 18. IDK. What he was alleged to have done was really terrible, it set the woman back 4-5 years in her life emotionally, that's what she said. I believe her, trauma like that is very corrosive.

I'm losing my faith in men, that's all I can say.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Maddy » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Brings to mind the scathing commentary on "date rape" by Camille Paglia aired on 60 Minutes at least three decades ago. Nothing like a feminist-lesbian-liberal cultural critic with a penchant for truth-telling to put things in perspective.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:38 am

Wouldn't it be fun to live in a society where you can accuse someone of anything, from any point in time, with no proof*, and have people believe you? That would be dope.

* AFAIK
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by ochotona » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:37 am

If he's lying - we lose

If she's lying - we lose

Who's winning here? I'd like to know.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:29 am

Charlie Sheen. He's bi-winning.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:44 am

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Cortopassi
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm

So some of you think a respected, professional 51 year old woman would put herself through this shitstorm falsely?

This was a comment on a NYT article related to this. I think it sums it up nicely. There's no rape allegation, but it seemed he was possibly going in that direction, esp. with the hand over her mouth aspect. If this is actually proven, I agree 100%:
------------------
As to the "boys will be boys" argument, I've been reminded of a conversation I had decades ago with my teenage boyfriend. We were all sitting around talking and somehow we got on the topic of criminal behavior and murder. Eventually someone said, "Well, rape is the worst thing you could do to someone, other than murder." And I so clearly remember what my boyfriend said in response. He said, "I think rape is worse. I mean, to rape a woman, I'd have to hold her down, keep her from struggling against me, force her into submission. I'd have to ignore her panic and fear. I'd have to get sexually aroused by it. While she's having the worst moment of her life, I'm supposed to be getting off? I think it'd be much easier to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger."

I was kind of shocked by the comment, because as a girl, I had considered the possibility of being raped, but not of raping. But the truth is that to a moral boy, a decent boy, the thought is horrendous. It's not part of sowing your wild oats. It's not "youthful indiscretion." It's repulsive to any normal human being. So these allegations better be taken seriously, because if he did this to Ms. Blasey Ford, he cannot be rewarded with a seat on the Court.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:14 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm
So some of you think a respected, professional 51 year old woman would put herself through this shitstorm falsely?
Sadly, yes. Gloria Allred created an entire cottage industry around publicizing similar accusations that strangely evaporate after votes, and it has been getting more and more lucrative in today's political climate. Here's a good article about it from late last year. While I'm absolutely willing to be proven wrong if verifiable facts come out, this just feels like more of the same to me.

Also, I'd take it a lot more seriously if Karen Monahan was receiving the same amount of support that's being afforded to Christine Blasey Ford. If you don't know who that is, that's my point. Politics truly corrupts and virtue in capitol hill is a lie that's just for show.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:19 pm

Tyler wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:14 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm
So some of you think a respected, professional 51 year old woman would put herself through this shitstorm falsely?
Sadly, yes. Gloria Allred created an entire cottage industry around publicizing similar accusations that strangely evaporate after votes, and it has been getting more and more lucrative in today's political climate. Here's a good article about it from late last year. While I'm absolutely willing to be proven wrong if verifiable facts come out, this just feels like more of the same to me.

Also, I'd take it a lot more seriously if Karen Monahan was receiving the same amount of support that's being afforded to Christine Blasey Ford. If you don't know who that is, that's my point. Politics truly corrupts and virtue in capitol hill is a lie that's just for show.
Read a few articles on Keith Ellison/Monahan. Terrible that even sexual/physical abuse allegations and how strongly they are pursued have partisanship involved.

I can understand a tiny, tiny little bit about the stronger pursuit of Kavanaugh because it is a lifetime appointment, but not much.

I hope Ellison is thoroughly investigated.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:01 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm
I can understand a tiny, tiny little bit about the stronger pursuit of Kavanaugh because it is a lifetime appointment, but not much.
hmm. Well one thing that's without a doubt is that the left is generally apoplectic about this nomination, and certainly a great many are absolutely desperate to stop it.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:24 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:01 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:01 pm
I can understand a tiny, tiny little bit about the stronger pursuit of Kavanaugh because it is a lifetime appointment, but not much.
hmm. Well one thing that's without a doubt is that the left is generally apoplectic about this nomination, and certainly a great many are absolutely desperate to stop it.
I am old enough to remember when sexual assault and the like was a personal tragedy that was dealt with personally and through the local courts, and not some atomic bomb political sleeper hold that was designed to make the opponent tap out.

In a way, it isn't fair to us, the common people, to be put in the position of having an opinion about whether or not someone is fit for an office based on something that did or did not happen decades ago.

I didn't mean to seem (too) flippant posting memes to a serious discussion, but the very fact that memes like that exist is a kind of evidence that sexual coercion has been used too long now as a cynical political ploy.

Like a lot of people, I have false accusation fatigue. I can think of, off the top of my head, three or four sensationalized rape cases in the recent years that turned out to be false accusations. If you add to this all the antigay, antitrans, antiblack bits of hate speech that turned out to be hoaxes, and it is hard to take these sorts of accusations at face value anymore.

I haven't seen anything in the press that makes one side or the other seem credible, and there is a lot of partisan hot air flowing in its customary direction for or against, based on who you want on the Supreme court.

If it did happen, she is right to come forward. If it didn't happen, there is little downside for coming forward, seeing as how no woman ever does any time for false accusations, and all the people in her circle will still support her regardless. And the upside is no Kavanaugh.

It wasn't until recently that I believed that women would be willing lie and end up in the middle of a firestorm, and that is only because it keeps getting called out, time after time, in the recent years. I suppose the obvious solution to naively believing any accuser at any time as long as she is female, is to dig down and research and get the facts before having an opinion.

Unfortunately, especially in this case, the stakes are so high, that it seems impossible that anyone will tell any story that doesn't benefit their political position, and guys like me are left kind of cynical, and resort to memes instead of believing that there is anything meaningful to be gained by listening to these characters.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by pugchief » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:30 pm

sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:24 pm
seeing as how no woman ever does any time for false accusations, and all the people in her circle will still support her regardless.
And why exactly is that? Anyone?

It seems like fraud, slander and sleaze. Shouldn't false accusers be held responsible?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:06 pm

I can't put myself in this lady's shoes. I see no upside for her. If it is to get rid of Kavanaugh because of his views, and that is the upside, I think it's insane to put yourself through this.

This was so long ago, and quite subject to memories shifting that without hard evidence, as a well educated female professor, you'd have to know how it is going to be received at this stage. She is not some stupid teenager who gets caught in a lie that gets taken too far.

Those two things lead me to believe she is telling the truth (or at least what she is convinced is the truth (added)).
-----------------
Just to see both sides, I have been reading comments and articles on conservative blogs about this. And the only thing that comes to mind is America isn't America any more. We are at least two divided countries and we don't need some damn stupid war somewhere to unite us all for a few months. We need some big enema cleansing. I don't see how we ever get together again. Damn, I don't even know why I am letting this piss me off so much.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:39 pm

pugchief wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:30 pm
sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:24 pm
seeing as how no woman ever does any time for false accusations, and all the people in her circle will still support her regardless.
And why exactly is that? Anyone?

It seems like fraud, slander and sleaze. Shouldn't false accusers be held responsible?
The only one I'm aware of is Nikki Yovino, who accused two students at Sacred Heart of taking turns raping her in a bathroom. She admitted that she made it up to get sympathy from a potential boyfriend and took a plea deal for 1 year. Evidently if she had reported to the school Title IX authorities instead of the police she would have walked away.
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:06 pm
I can't put myself in this lady's shoes. I see no upside for her. If it is to get rid of Kavanaugh because of his views, and that is the upside, I think it's insane to put yourself through this.
When EJ Kanin investigated a small town and found that 41% of the rape claims were false, he noted three reasons for the allegations: "to provide an alibi, for revenge, and to obtain sympathy or attention... and reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations."

It looks like Ford alleged the incident(?) at marriage counselling/couples therapy that she was undergoing with her husband.
This was so long ago, and quite subject to memories shifting that without hard evidence, as a well educated female professor, you'd have to know how it is going to be received at this stage. She is not some stupid teenager who gets caught in a lie that gets taken too far.

Those two things lead me to believe she is telling the truth (or at least what she is convinced is the truth (added)).
Well, it's not like any of us were even aware of her existence, much less know her personality. She could be a vindictive attention-seeking Marxist harpy for all we know...
Just to see both sides, I have been reading comments and articles on conservative blogs about this. And the only thing that comes to mind is America isn't America any more. We are at least two divided countries and we don't need some damn stupid war somewhere to unite us all for a few months. We need some big enema cleansing. I don't see how we ever get together again. Damn, I don't even know why I am letting this piss me off so much.
You'd think with at least two really strong diversities we'd be that much stronger. :P
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:24 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:06 pm
I can't put myself in this lady's shoes. I see no upside for her. If it is to get rid of Kavanaugh because of his views, and that is the upside, I think it's insane to put yourself through this.
What is she putting herself through? Most of the people in her circles and in the media hate Trump and by extension Kavanaugh, so for the most part, she is getting nothing but attention and love. Judging by social media, a lot of people love that.

Also, who doesn't love a good fight if it is what you believe in? Even if Kavanaugh ends up on the court, she will still have tons of supporters and insane amounts of publicity and encouragement for the rest of her life. She will be a gold medalist in the Oppression Olympics. Could easily end up on the lecture circuit. A guaranteed saint for life.

It is almost sexist to say that a woman is a wilting flower 'putting herself' through some great ordeal that, if she were a man, we would say was her duty if she was telling the truth. It is also somewhat sexist not to question her motives the same way we would question a man's motives when he bring attention to himself.
pugchief wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:30 pm
sweetbthescrivener wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:24 pm
seeing as how no woman ever does any time for false accusations, and all the people in her circle will still support her regardless.
And why exactly is that? Anyone?

It seems like fraud, slander and sleaze. Shouldn't false accusers be held responsible?
The official reason is that it will make real victims too afraid to come forward. That might be partially true, though I have read many times, and sorry, no references because I didn't know I would be making this post, accounts of anonymous police officers who say that the percentage of false rape and sexual assault allegations is much higher than is reported, and it would be a real cluster-you-know-what if, in addition to all the rapes, they had to prosecute all the false allegations.

Also, feminists are very organized, very vocal, and any whiff of not believing an accuser brings massive political pressure to bear on local police departments. There is no corresponding bureaucracy of 'menists' to bang drums whenever a false accusation arises. And if you did arrest and convict a woman for a false accusation, you can also bet that there would be calls for leniency (She's a mother! A daughter! ) and comparisons to all the 'rapists' who got away.

This is bad enough on the personal level, but the fact that it is now being used liberally (heh) for political gain puts us in a serious boy who cried wolf situation, and unfortunately, that actually will hurt real victims.

I found this take on the situation by a former police officer to be useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiGR_oXltM
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:50 pm

This is not looking good for the accuser. Feinstein is backpedaling on her support.
Now, after all of this, Feinstein isn’t sure if Ford is being totally truthful. From Fox News’ Chad Pergram, Feinstein said, that Ford “is a woman that has been, I think, profoundly impacted, on this…I can't say that everything is truthful. I don't know."
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... l-n2520256

So, she might not be telling the truth, but only because she is traumatized, which she wouldn't be if something hadn't happened. A beautiful CYA statement. Feinstein is good either way.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by ochotona » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:14 pm

Every false accusation harms real victims.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:26 am

How soon do you predict our civil war? Seems we have about 1/5 hard lefties, 1/5 hard righties with the 3/5 middle just wishing they both would settle down, act like civil creatures, or just go away and leave them alone. Sort of like the percentages prior to the American Revolution if I remember my history lessons correctly.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:51 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:26 am
How soon do you predict our civil war? Seems we have about 1/5 hard lefties, 1/5 hard righties with the 3/5 middle just wishing they both would settle down, act like civil creatures, or just go away and leave them alone. Sort of like the percentages prior to the American Revolution if I remember my history lessons correctly.
I don't know what measures to use, but by a few, there were periods in our history where we were far-more divided. Forgetting the civil war for a second, imagine either of these happening today...

- Several assassinations of prominent leaders within government or the civil rights movement.
- Terrorist Bombings of dozens of prominent civic and business targets (anarchist bombings of 1919)
- Can't find the source on short notice (at work), but I guess in the late 60's and early 70's there was a slew of small bombings in this country.

I tend to think that if any of these would happen today, we would lose our godd@mn minds, which isn't necessarily a good thing, but at least tells me we don't appear as far down the "divided" rabbit hole as we might have initially seemed. I think social media helps stoke the flames a bit.

But one other thing... I don't necessarily think it's the "far-left" and "far-right" that are the problem. I have listened to some marxists and anarcho-capitalists (do you call them far-right or neo-nazis? Not sure) on podcasts and in conversation... and while they have some radical opinions, the way they discuss issues can be very balanced and logical. Meanwhile, take someone from the McResistance on the left who was a die-hard Hillary supporter and wants Trump removed no matter what, or someone on the right who believes in some social safety net and is ok with gay marriage but hates the state of diversity and will defend Trump rabidly with ridiculous argumentation... Those people could arguably be called "center-left" and "center-right" given their actual political opinions, but party tribalism has pushed them into a rabid fervor to support "their team."

I think a lot of times people with more radical views feel like they haven't had a team in a long time, so they can discuss issues from a distance. I actually consider myself one of these people... althought I don't know if I align left as much as people here probably assume given my counter-arguments.

Of course, for every marxist that can calmly have a conversation with you and be very cool no matter what your beliefs, there's one throwing bricks through windows. And for every "silent majority" church mouse who has very, very conservative views, there's her nephew, smoking up the intersection with the black tar from his lifted pickup truck. I'm not saying the extremes are where to be, but it's not like those extremists are the sole cause of the problem. I think rabid right-center-right or left-center-leftists are as-much-if-not-more-so the problem They have a team they have to defend, and they have establishment power.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Desert » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:34 am

Interesting post, moda.

Purely for humor value, I saw an article that Ted Cruz is telling voters that his opponent intends to eliminate barbecue if elected. Now that could definitely kick off Civil War II!

(I haven't checked the accuracy of said article, I just found the idea pretty humorous. Dirty commie bastards are comin' fer our brisket!)
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:19 pm

Desert wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:34 am
Interesting post, moda.

Purely for humor value, I saw an article that Ted Cruz is telling voters that his opponent intends to eliminate barbecue if elected. Now that could definitely kick off Civil War II!

(I haven't checked the accuracy of said article, I just found the idea pretty humorous. Dirty commie bastards are comin' fer our brisket!)
I'd be curious to see if people agree with my take... I find harder-leftists that think Hillary is a corporatist war-monger easier to discuss issues in a balanced way than establishment (yet rabidly anti-Trump) "I'm with Her" McResistance types.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:38 pm

Christine Blasey Ford Wants F.B.I. to Investigate Kavanaugh Before She Testifies

I'll bet she does.
The president repeated the attack on Ms. Feinstein for not raising the issue earlier in the confirmation process, given that Dr. Blasey first contacted her in July. “Why didn’t the Democrats bring it up then?” he said. “Because they obstruct and because they resist. That’s the name of their campaign against me.”

For some liberals, the charge of obstructionism rang hollow given that Republicans refused to even meet with President Barack Obama’s Supreme Court nominee Merrick B. Garland in 2016. In this case, Ms. Feinstein said she did not raise the issue earlier because Dr. Blasey requested confidentiality. Only after word of the accusations leaked out last week did Dr. Blasey shift gears and agree to be named publicly.
"Hey, please keep me anonymous when you use my never-reported, decades old, un-provable claim to smear this guy."

This whole thing smells motherfucking fishy.
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