Harry on Bitcoin

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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:41 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:15 pm
Yeah, unfortunately everyone has confused something that was meant to be a currency with an investment/speculation. Even the people running the project now!
That is not correct. Bitcoin is becoming money. It needs to gain an insane amount of value per coin in order to become (global) money given its limited supply.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:43 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:36 pm
Why is bitcoin going to remain the preferred coin
It has first mover advantage, the largest current market cap, the best developers, the most hashrate securing it, the largest ecosystem surrounding it, a clear purpose which it has delivered on (hard money), the best monetary policy.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:43 pm
boglerdude wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:36 pm
Why is bitcoin going to remain the preferred coin
It has first mover advantage, the largest current market cap, the best developers, the most hashrate securing it, the largest ecosystem surrounding it, a clear purpose which it has delivered on (hard money), the best monetary policy.
And none of that will mean anything when it is abandoned as being completely worthless.

As for its being hard money: it is obvious that you don't understand that term. Hint: it means you can clank it together in your hand.

Maybe you were thinking of this? https://online.kitco.com/buy/3126/1-oz- ... d-999-3126
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:10 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 pm
And none of that will mean anything when it is abandoned as being completely worthless.
I agree that if Bitcoin is abandoned it will be largely worthless. Why do you think such a thing would happen? What would happen to cause scarce, hard to censor, hard to inflate, hard to confiscate, hard to counterfeit, digital money to not be sought after by individuals any longer? Especially whose long term trend has been appreciating in fiat value? There are plenty of ways it can fail, but what is your opinion?
Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 pm
As for its being hard money: it is obvious that you don't understand that term. Hint: it means you can clank it together in your hand.
I am using hard money to refer to the fact that the supply of bitcoin is hard to inflate. Golds being physical isnt the property that gives it value. It is the fact that it is scarce and not subject to being inflated by man. Gold is hard money, sure. But Bitcoin is even harder. If the price of a bitcoin went to $100k the supply schedule stays the same. When gold prices rise, more gold is then produced due to the profitability of certain mining techniques, etc. Note: Im not anti gold, merely talking the hardness properties of each.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:48 am

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:10 am
Gold is hard money, sure. But Bitcoin is even harder.
I don't know where you are getting your drugs... but they are quality.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:10 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 pm
And none of that will mean anything when it is abandoned as being completely worthless.
I agree that if Bitcoin is abandoned it will be largely worthless. Why do you think such a thing would happen? What would happen to cause scarce, hard to censor, hard to inflate, hard to confiscate, hard to counterfeit, digital money to not be sought after by individuals any longer? Especially whose long term trend has been appreciating in fiat value? There are plenty of ways it can fail, but what is your opinion?
Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:45 pm
As for its being hard money: it is obvious that you don't understand that term. Hint: it means you can clank it together in your hand.
I am using hard money to refer to the fact that the supply of bitcoin is hard to inflate. Golds being physical isnt the property that gives it value. It is the fact that it is scarce and not subject to being inflated by man. Gold is hard money, sure. But Bitcoin is even harder. If the price of a bitcoin went to $100k the supply schedule stays the same. When gold prices rise, more gold is then produced due to the profitability of certain mining techniques, etc. Note: Im not anti gold, merely talking the hardness properties of each.
As soon as Bitcoin has 1/10th the track record of gold, I'll consider it.

Until then, it's basically like a Beanie Baby... only you can't even see it.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:37 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:48 am
bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:10 am
Gold is hard money, sure. But Bitcoin is even harder.
I don't know where you are getting your drugs... but they are quality.
Im open to hearing your viewpoints on the matter and even to educate myself. But seeing platitudes like this is not very useful for anyone.

Ive explained why I think that gold is "less hard" since its price appreciation can allocate more resources to is excavation and lowers its stock to flow ratio.

So specifically, how do you see the supply of bitcoins increasing beyond the 21million cap?
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:43 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
As soon as Bitcoin has 1/10th the track record of gold, I'll consider it.
This is reasonable. However you would miss out on the appreciation of bitcoin as it monetizes. At some point bitcoin will be stable. It is at this point that it will be a good unit of account and medium of exchange. So you will be adopting bitcoin as a stable way to transact at that point. At least that is the hypothesis many of us have adopted.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
Until then, it's basically like a Beanie Baby... only you can't even see it.
Not all speculations are the same.

Beanie Babies were a fad physical doll and bubble that crashed once and never came back.

Bitcoin is a digital money that has bubbled several times that keeps increasing in value over time.

Not sure how seriously I should address these "criticisms" as it seems to me as though the intent is solely insult rather than learn or discuss.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:54 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:43 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
As soon as Bitcoin has 1/10th the track record of gold, I'll consider it.
This is reasonable. However you would miss out on the appreciation of bitcoin as it monetizes. At some point bitcoin will be stable. It is at this point that it will be a good unit of account and medium of exchange. So you will be adopting bitcoin as a stable way to transact at that point. At least that is the hypothesis many of us have adopted.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
Until then, it's basically like a Beanie Baby... only you can't even see it.
Not all speculations are the same.

Beanie Babies were a fad physical doll and bubble that crashed once and never came back.

Bitcoin is a digital money that has bubbled several times that keeps increasing in value over time.

Not sure how seriously I should address these "criticisms" as it seems to me as though the intent is solely insult rather than learn or discuss.
There is no evidence that Bitcoin will ever be stable, and lots of evidence that it will not be.
There is also no evidence that it will ever be used to any significant extent in commerce.
So far, it has had value only as a speculation based on people thinking that it will go up forever.
Now that that fantasy has been dashed, I don't expect it ever to regain its former brief glory.

Of course I could be wrong, and this time it is different.

But the odds of that being the case are very poor.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Ad Orientem » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm

Hard Money: (def) Hard currency, safe-haven currency or strong currency is any globally traded currency that serves as a reliable and stable store of value.

Gold (and silver) has been a universally recognized store of value for around 10,000 years (give or take). Bit Coin... not quite so long. Gold's status as a store of value means it is "money." BC is at best a currency, and an incredibly volatile one at that. Gold is physical. Bitcoin is an electronic phantom. Bitcoin could be shut down fairly easily by any state that has a significant economy and the power to regulate E commerce. As just one example the price of BC tanked when rumors started floating that South Korea was going to ban it. While there have been a handful of localized efforts to restrict Gold or even confiscate it, none have been completely successful because of its physical nature and such efforts have almost always lead to a sharp increase in its value. BC has relatively limited standing as an accepted medium of exchange. I cannot think of any country where gold cannot be exchanged for goods and services though in many instances it may be necessary to first use it to purchase the local fiat currency. Gold can be somewhat volatile in the near term. BC however has the stability of nitroglycerin. Calling it a hard currency betrays a breathtaking ignorance of elementary economics. Some have called BC a speculative currency. I think of it more as a lottery ticket.

Gold as a universally accepted store of value with a multi-millennial pedigree, is cash in its purest form. While its value relative to the fiat dollar may fluctuate, barring the development of the ability to create it artificially and cheaply, it will always retain its basic purchasing power. It is the epitome of safety.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:39 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:54 pm
There is no evidence that Bitcoin will ever be stable, and lots of evidence that it will not be.
There is also no evidence that it will ever be used to any significant extent in commerce.
It is hard for me to think of evidence that could be provided that a nascent technology will achieve its end goals.

Bitcoin started transacting $0/day on chain and is in the $100s of millions per day now. However you look at it, it is still a drop in the bucket, for sure.
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:54 pm
So far, it has had value only as a speculation based on people thinking that it will go up forever.
Now that that fantasy has been dashed, I don't expect it ever to regain its former brief glory.
When you say that fantasy has been dashed, I am assuming you are referring to the most recent bubble popping? But there have been similar, and even worse Bitcoin bubbles for years. From $30/coin to $1. From $1200 to $100. Etc. There is nothing really new or unexpected in this new round of mania.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:59 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
Hard Money: (def) Hard currency, safe-haven currency or strong currency is any globally traded currency that serves as a reliable and stable store of value.
I was using the term hard money to refer to its ability to be controlled/inflated by man and thus its stock/flow ratio. By this definition you provide Bitcoin is currently a volatile money and not hard.
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
Gold (and silver) has been a universally recognized store of value for around 10,000 years (give or take). Bit Coin... not quite so long. Gold's status as a store of value means it is "money." BC is at best a currency, and an incredibly volatile one at that.
I think Bitcoin has some very desirable properties of money and can and will be used as money when its value increases and liquidity is enough to stabilize the price. I think this make take many years. My claim is not that Bitcoin is a stable store of value money currently, but that it has properties which are consistent with money once it monetizes. See more here: https://medium.com/@vijayboyapati/the-b ... ecc8bdecc1
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
Gold is physical. Bitcoin is an electronic phantom.
It seems like you are saying digital things are bad or cannot be scarce. I disagree. The world is becoming more and more digital. A digital money has utility.
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
Bitcoin could be shut down fairly easily by any state that has a significant economy and the power to regulate E commerce. As just one example the price of BC tanked when rumors started floating that South Korea was going to ban it.
An example of the price dropped on news that a country was going to ban it is not evidence that a state can "shut it down". Sure they can write laws that say their citizen cannot do anything with Bitcoin, but that doesn’t stop Bitcoin. I do think Bitcoin will be banned in several countries as time goes on. And I think that will hurt from a price perspective.
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
While there have been a handful of localized efforts to restrict Gold or even confiscate it, none have been completely successful because of its physical nature and such efforts have almost always lead to a sharp increase in its value.
Governments own a good % of the available gold. And in fact part of the reason we ended up with the current fiat money system is the weakness of gold's physical property and its ability to be centralized. More here for those with lots of time and curiosity: https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Standard ... 1119473861
Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
BC has relatively limited standing as an accepted medium of exchange. I cannot think of any country where gold cannot be exchanged for goods and services though in many instances it may be necessary to first use it to purchase the local fiat currency. Gold can be somewhat volatile in the near term. BC however has the stability of nitroglycerin. Calling it a hard currency betrays a breathtaking ignorance of elementary economics. Some have called BC a speculative currency. I think of it more as a lottery ticket.

Gold as a universally accepted store of value with a multi-millennial pedigree, is cash in its purest form. While its value relative to the fiat dollar may fluctuate, barring the development of the ability to create it artificially and cheaply, it will always retain its basic purchasing power. It is the epitome of safety.
I agree with most of this. Ive tried to clarify my meaning of hard money above. And your points about Bitcoin being both volatile and not widely accepted, I agree with. But that does not mean it will not be widely held/accepted in the future. When speculating on the future (yes, speculating) it is useful not just to look at Bitcoin "today" but the "future" as well.

Lets make this more fun and falsifiable. Will you be willing to say that you have misjudged Bitcoin, if its value in the market hits $100,000 per coin any time within the next 10 years?
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:16 pm

I'm sensing a hint of Saifedean Ammous in the above comments.... 8)
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:35 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm
Hard Money: (def) Hard currency, safe-haven currency or strong currency is any globally traded currency that serves as a reliable and stable store of value.
appears the above def was taken from Wikipedia....here is more taken from Wikipedia....."The paper currencies of some developed countries have earned recognition as hard currencies at various times, including the United States dollar, Euro, Swiss franc, British pound sterling, Japanese yen, and to a lesser extent, the Canadian dollar and Australian dollar. "

So fiat is hard money.....good to know.
Last edited by gaddyslapper007 on Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:35 pm

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:16 pm
I'm sensing a hint of Saifedean Ammous in the above comments.... 8)
Absolutely! I even linked to his book.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:30 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
As soon as Bitcoin has 1/10th the track record of gold, I'll consider it. Until then, it's basically like a Beanie Baby... only you can't even see it.
Define "track record"?....if thousands of years agreed value / worth is what your implying, well you've admitted you'll never consider it. If you'll consider Market Cap then we only need a price ~$40K per coin to reach 1/10th of the high estimation of Gold's total market cap. Is that a quantifiable measurement? Its a measurement of the collective "Alive" people & governments perceived value & worth currently....no? (You can’t sell gold to dead people...so history really doesn't matter)

Regarding Beanie Baby,....is this even an argument? Have you really compared the two in your mind? Again, gold is more similar to pet rocks and beanie baby's if you'd be honest with yourself. I'm open to hear ideas, comparisons, rebuttals, ….you've taken time to write the things quoted above.....surely you've evaluated your views and opinions and not simply regurgitated headline opinions of the uninformed.

Bitcoin (the design) is the best form of money ever invented from every measurable angle except one, which I will agree is the MOST important!...and CANNOT simply be designed in. That is “peoples acceptance”….your gold, dollar, whatever is worthless if people decide not to accept it. Bitcoin lacks acceptance / value / worth in the mass majority of Peoples minds. But this acceptance has been growing over the last 10 years, this cannot be denied. To encourage acceptance...by design it is deflationary (price appreciation), with acceptance it will become more and more stable pricing wise.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:34 pm

gaddyslapper007 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:30 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm
As soon as Bitcoin has 1/10th the track record of gold, I'll consider it. Until then, it's basically like a Beanie Baby... only you can't even see it.
Define "track record"?....if thousands of years agreed value / worth is what your implying, well you've admitted you'll never consider it. If you'll consider Market Cap then we only need a price ~$40K per coin to reach 1/10th of the high estimation of Gold's total market cap. Is that a quantifiable measurement? Its a measurement of the collective "Alive" people & governments perceived value & worth currently....no? (You can’t sell gold to dead people...so history really doesn't matter)

Regarding Beanie Baby,....is this even an argument? Have you really compared the two in your mind? Again, gold is more similar to pet rocks and beanie baby's if you'd be honest with yourself. I'm open to hear ideas, comparisons, rebuttals, ….you've taken time to write the things quoted above.....surely you've evaluated your views and opinions and not simply regurgitated headline opinions of the uninformed.

Bitcoin (the design) is the best form of money ever invented from every measurable angle except one, which I will agree is the MOST important!...and CANNOT simply be designed in. That is “peoples acceptance”….your gold, dollar, whatever is worthless if people decide not to accept it. Bitcoin lacks acceptance / value / worth in the mass majority of Peoples minds. But this acceptance has been growing over the last 10 years, this cannot be denied. To encourage acceptance...by design it is deflationary (price appreciation), with acceptance it will become more and more stable pricing wise.
Bitcoin isn't any kind of money. It is an absurd speculative instrument relying on the "greater fool" theory.
But by all means keep HODLing, and to quote a great philosopher: "[Y]ou'll go home in a barrel."
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:15 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:44 pm

Bitcoin isn't any kind of money. It is an absurd speculative instrument relying on the "greater fool" theory.
But by all means keep HODLing, and to quote a great philosopher: "[Y]ou'll go home in a barrel."
I guess it doesn’t really matter what anyone “calls” it or refuses to call it, it does what it does and is what it is.

Speculative.....yes. I damn sure don’t recommend “all in”.

The “greater fool theory” is also applicable / required for investing in gold, money, stocks, etc. ...no? Otherwise you wouldn’t hold them hoping people perceive them at a higher value in the future. Call them fools, investors, speculators, whatever...it dosn’t matter. They are still people.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by boglerdude » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 am

What problem do I have that crypto is solving. Tax avoidance? technov, you should be supporting it then =)
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by gaddyslapper007 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:19 am

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 am
What problem do I have that crypto is solving. Tax avoidance? technov, you should be supporting it then =)
I don’t know your business nor geographic location. But if you live in Venezuela, Cypress, China, Argentina, etc. then capital controls, runaway inflation and asset forfeiture would be problems. Bitcoin wasn’t built for Americans....it was built for anyone who its appreciates it’s attributes.

You mention taxation....if you bought the 2017 crypto hype......sell at a huge loss and write it off! ;)

But seriously, not sure how you would avoid paying taxes with it.....but yes, crypto could be very useful against asset forfeiture.
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:10 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 am
What problem do I have that crypto is solving. Tax avoidance? technov, you should be supporting it then =)
Yes, I guess if you lost most of your assets by investing in the "sure thing" of Bitcoin, you would have a great tax avoidance scheme!
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Re: Harry on Bitcoin

Post by bitcoininthevp » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:49 am

boglerdude wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 am
What problem do I have that crypto is solving. Tax avoidance? technov, you should be supporting it then =)
I cant know your situation and how Bitcoin might benefit you, but here are some examples of what people are using Bitcoin for. I am not claiming Bitcoin is a perfect solution for each of these uses cases, but that this is what people can and are using it for.

Censorship resistance. This includes individuals whose payments are typically censored, like wikileaks or online drug markets. This also includes groups or individuals who getting "deplatformed" (block by paypal or other fundraising platforms) because they have views that those platforms (or their governments) do not like.

Store of value. This includes people in countries whose currencies are inflating at a rate that makes Bitcoin's current volatility seem appealing. It also includes people in countries with lacking or no banking services available to them.

Speculation. This includes short term traders trying to trade on trends. But this also includes people that hold long term who believe Bitcoin can become money and in order to do so will appreciate drastically in value.

International payments. This includes people remitting money from overseas to their family. Also people paying for goods and services overseas can save money by using Bitcoin to transact. There are also countries where it is hard or impossible to exchange with online which would be serviced by Bitcoin.

Private payments. While Bitcoin is not completely anonymous, it can be transacted in a "more private" way. This includes individuals who value their financial privacy.

Micropayments. It is possible to transact in bitcoin using fractions of pennies. Especially using tools ontop of bitcoin (lightning network). This is applicable for pay-per-use services like an online newspaper paywall, paying realtime per minute used on a cell plan, etc. Even new use cases are opened up here like machine to machine micro transaction payments.

Tax evasion. This is for individuals who do not wish to pay the government the recommended taxes: income tax or otherwise.

Anti confiscation. This includes people that want to have value stored in something that cannot easily be stolen. Individuals crossing borders, feeling countries, etc. Asset forfeiture is applicable here. It also includes anyone fearful that their government might become a bit more invasive.

Anti inflation hedge. This includes individuals wanting to hold money that isnt inflating. As this use case becomes more appealing (bitcoin's volatility decreasing), Bitcoin will be a threat to central banks and the governments that attain part of their non-taxation funding from inflating the money supply. By eliminating the ability for governments to print money to benefit themselves, governments will have to shrink or get their funding from increasing taxes, which is harder than inflating.

Cheaper payments. Fees on Bitcoin transactions can be very low. So there is some advantage for people transacting in Bitcoin, even in the same country, where fees might be high. This might be the case when making medium/large purchase online and avoiding the ~3% credit card fee for example.

Programmable money. I give my son bitcoin that cannot be spent before the year 2050 for example. My 3 business partners and I can fund a bitcoin address such that 2 our of the 3 of us has to approve the transaction in order for it to go through. Google "smart contracts" for other examples of this.
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