Interventionism versus non-interventionism

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jason
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Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by jason » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:06 pm

The most common criticism of Libertarians I have seen is that their non-interventionist policies would allow other rival powers, such as China or Russia, to grow in influence and to eventually take over much of the globe, greatly weakening the strength of the US and Europe, and ultimately could lead to the West being dominated by an Eastern power. While it would be nice to close most of our foreign military bases and end most of our foreign entanglements, it's not hard to imagine other countries filling the void created by the US and Europe pulling out. I've never seen any prominent Libertarians address these concerns. Is anyone familiar with what HB or Ron Paul, for example, have said about this? How do Libertarians counter this criticism?
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by hardlawjockey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:19 pm

jason wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:06 pm
The most common criticism of Libertarians I have seen is that their non-interventionist policies would allow other rival powers, such as China or Russia, to grow in influence and to eventually take over much of the globe, greatly weakening the strength of the US and Europe, and ultimately could lead to the West being dominated by an Eastern power. While it would be nice to close most of our foreign military bases and end most of our foreign entanglements, it's not hard to imagine other countries filling the void created by the US and Europe pulling out. I've never seen any prominent Libertarians address these concerns. Is anyone familiar with what HB or Ron Paul, for example, have said about this? How do Libertarians counter this criticism?
The idea that we need to go beat those other bad guys up before they beat us up is very popular and hard to argue against and probably built into our DNA so it isn't surprising that Libertarianism doesn't do so well at the polls. Even though Jesus said to love our enemies and "turn the other cheek", this philosophy doesn't really go over that well in Christianity either. What percentage of the Christian vote did HB or Ron Paul get espousing this view?

In Libertarian philosophy "interventionism=force" and the use of force goes against the prime directive of Libertarianism. I actually first learned about HB long before I learned about the PP through some of his anti-war speeches. If you can find them, I would suggest reading them. They might provide some insight to your question.
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:12 pm

"Intervening less" would most likely lead to better outcomes because we would have less chances to fuck something up. I think it would do wonders to just not fuck up as much.
America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her own example. She well knows that by once enlisting under banners other than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, ambition, which assumed the colors and usurped the standards of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit.

John Q. Adams
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by boglerdude » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:33 am

And libertarians want open borders. I agree but that increases the need to stabilize the rest of the world to reduce refugees. Has western civilization (US & allies) removed more dictators than it has installed?
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 am

dictatress O0
(from the Adams quote above)
The logout button on this forum is dangerously close to the Notifications button.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:28 am

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:33 am
And libertarians want open borders. I agree but that increases the need to stabilize the rest of the world to reduce refugees. Has western civilization (US & allies) removed more dictators than it has installed?
Immigration isn't stupid or evil or whatever, but a country telling itself it doesn't have the right to decide who can come and live there is insane. Open borders is stupid.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:29 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 am
dictatress O0
(from the Adams quote above)
Have you ever heard an Australian pronounce dictators?

Dick Tight-ass.
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:30 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:20 am
dictatress O0
(from the Adams quote above)
I'd have thought the feminine of "dictator" would have been "dictatrix". No, seriously.
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:51 am

I'm pretty sure dictator is non-gender-specific, and John Quincy made it so just to be a dic. He was just a really early SJW.
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jason
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by jason » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:14 pm

So does everyone here agree that if the West changed its interventionist foreign policy to non-interventionism, that the West would run the risk of being overrun by the East, and 50 years from now, Westerners might be speaking Chinese?
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 pm

jason wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:14 pm
So does everyone here agree that if the West changed its interventionist foreign policy to non-interventionism, that the West would run the risk of being overrun by the East, and 50 years from now, Westerners might be speaking Chinese?
You are questioning if walking softly is a good strategy ... Some say only if you have a very big stick in readiness in case the hordes decide to come here before we abort or same-sex ourselves to nothingness. ;)
"Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!"
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Re: Interventionism versus non-interventionism

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:58 pm

Power in all its forms is a tool for exerting control. Those with power get to control, those without it don't.

I like many Libertarian ideas, but there is another part of me that thinks it's a pretty stupid political philosophy. To live in a Libertarian world successfully (safely?), you have to assume no else in your world desires to exert control over you. You wishing power away does not make someone's desire to exert it go away.
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