Freedom

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WiseOne
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Re: Freedom

Post by WiseOne » Mon May 14, 2018 7:59 am

Desert, no need to justify your decision and you have the perfect right to retire regardless of burnout status. Nevertheless - it sounds like it's a very good thing that you jumped ship now, rather than after starting to develop physical sequelae from the burnout you're describing.

I'm amazed at how many people I know are hitting the end of their rope, and quitting/retiring/want to retire. Frankly, me included. I've realized my workplace environment is simply not sustainable - and it's weird because I have a pretty good national reputation and people are shocked when I tell them what I've been having to put up with. I've had several people seriously ask me to consider moving to their institution, and I'd be very tempted except that I just really don't want to move. I like where I live, and I'm the last family member left living close to my 82 year old mother (who is now having health problems) and 80 year old aunt with Alzheimer's and a husband in his 90s. Oy.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon May 14, 2018 7:28 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:19 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:59 am
I'm amazed at how many people I know are hitting the end of their rope, and quitting/retiring/want to retire. Frankly, me included. I've realized my workplace environment is simply not sustainable
I also have been hearing of more and more folks departing their careers, either for retirement or just to do something less stressful. My theory is that the average white-collar workplace environment has significantly worsened over the past few decades, for a variety of reasons.
Yup, I think there's something going on there too. I've hated both white collar jobs I've had. Blue collar FTMFW. I'm going back to work in another blue collar job (I've alternated between white and blue once I got out of the Army).
Hey, maybe a silly question, but if you had a daughter entering college right now, what career would you recommend? Obviously it would depend on skills and interests, etc., but is there any career path that looks more attractive than some others?
If she leans blue; electrician, HVAC, nurse, police, military. If she leans white; sales, some kind of magical STEM job, construction management, CAD drafting and GIS software.
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Re: Freedom

Post by boglerdude » Tue May 15, 2018 1:42 am

Everyone should do cancer/aging biotech so we dont all die horribly (the status quo)

Disclosure: I tried it, burned out and retired at 30. (How? I live in a garage)
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Re: Freedom

Post by Mountaineer » Tue May 15, 2018 6:10 am

boglerdude wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:42 am
Everyone should do cancer/aging biotech so we dont all die horribly (the status quo)

Disclosure: I tried it, burned out and retired at 30. (How? I live in a garage)
I doubt there will ever be a cure for cancer, infectious diseases, or any other of the huge varieties of illness that afflict mankind - the best man can do is merely a postponement of the inevitable - which is a good thing from my perspective. Cancer research, for example, is largely a game of whack-a-mole. I can understand why you burned out at 30 - perhaps underlying the burnout was a sense (recognized or subliminal) of futility in the objective of the effort. There is only one way to die a good death. All my opinion, of course. Back to my morning coffee now ......
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Re: Freedom

Post by WiseOne » Tue May 15, 2018 6:58 am

Desert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:19 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:59 am
Desert, no need to justify your decision and you have the perfect right to retire regardless of burnout status. Nevertheless - it sounds like it's a very good thing that you jumped ship now, rather than after starting to develop physical sequelae from the burnout you're describing.

I'm amazed at how many people I know are hitting the end of their rope, and quitting/retiring/want to retire. Frankly, me included. I've realized my workplace environment is simply not sustainable
I also have been hearing of more and more folks departing their careers, either for retirement or just to do something less stressful. My theory is that the average white-collar workplace environment has significantly worsened over the past few decades, for a variety of reasons.

Hey, maybe a silly question, but if you had a daughter entering college right now, what career would you recommend?
I have a niece in college who did a pre-med track and is asking the very same question. Going to medical school now is something I just can't recommend to anybody unless you're super smart & infinitely energetic & hell bent on becoming a neurosurgeon. A physician extender like nursing would be better, although you still have to have a high tolerance for regulatory b-s. Medical research is an awesome career, but it's a long, hard, and very uncertain road. Best option is probably to become a veterinarian. They're the happiest people I know in the medical field, which is probably why vet schools are now more competitive than med schools. Chiropractic is similar, but that comes with a weird faith-based philosophy that I can't subscribe to.

I guess the best advice would be: find an area that makes you happy and then think about fashioning a career where you have lots of flexibility/options including the ability to retire early. The worst thing is to lock yourself into a situation where you have no choice but to keep working full time until full retirement age.
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Re: Freedom

Post by stuper1 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:37 am

WiseOne or anyone else,

Do you have any thoughts on whether physical therapy is a good career field? My son is seriously considering that field.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Cortopassi » Tue May 15, 2018 11:37 am

Look at all the memory care/old folks homes going up. In my area, Arl Hts, IL, it literally seems every open space is being built up with those. I can think of 4 off the top of my head within a 3 mile radius, just built or being built.

We have a friend whose son is starting at Marquette in the fall on a 6 year PT track. It is and will continue to be huge I would think as the population ages especially.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Cortopassi » Tue May 15, 2018 11:44 am

MangoMan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:37 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:10 am
I doubt there will ever be a cure for cancer, infectious diseases, or any other of the huge varieties of illness that afflict mankind
Cancer wasn't an issue 100 years ago, because very few people lived long enough for that to be a major cause of death. The elimination [or control] of more minor diseases have allowed cancer to become a public health dilemma. I assure you at some point, humankind will find a cure [or control] but then some other disease will be the new scourge.
I'm hopeful, probably not in our lifetime, for nanotechnology. Shoot me up with those little buggers that will go around and do whatever wonders will be available at the time. Or we'll just flat out find the key to aging.

Assuming we don't extinct ourselves, I am sure the next big problem will be overpopulation and boredom?? because people are living full lives well into their 100s, or theoretically as long as they want.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:48 am

Desert wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:10 am
WiseOne wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:58 am
Desert wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:19 pm
Hey, maybe a silly question, but if you had a daughter entering college right now, what career would you recommend?
I have a niece in college who did a pre-med track and is asking the very same question. Going to medical school now is something I just can't recommend to anybody unless you're super smart & infinitely energetic & hell bent on becoming a neurosurgeon. A physician extender like nursing would be better, although you still have to have a high tolerance for regulatory b-s. Medical research is an awesome career, but it's a long, hard, and very uncertain road. Best option is probably to become a veterinarian. They're the happiest people I know in the medical field, which is probably why vet schools are now more competitive than med schools. Chiropractic is similar, but that comes with a weird faith-based philosophy that I can't subscribe to.

I guess the best advice would be: find an area that makes you happy and then think about fashioning a career where you have lots of flexibility/options including the ability to retire early. The worst thing is to lock yourself into a situation where you have no choice but to keep working full time until full retirement age.
I like that summary in your last paragraph. My (now 11 year old) son's comments when I told him I quit my job were pretty humorous. He said something like "wow, you can DO that? That's pretty crazy, I've never heard of anyone's Dad just quitting and staying home." I hope it ends up being a positive for him as well, to see that there are possibilities other than lifelong wage earning, given some preparation. I'd love to see him go to Vet school, but his strengths are not in rote memorization that is required in many science classes, nor in hand-eye fine coordination required for animal surgery. He does absolutely love animals though, so we'll see if that leads somewhere. Right now, I'm guessing he'll end up in some crazy tech area that I don't understand.

It's interesting you mention Chiropractic. I saw a Chiropractor over the past year, a few times. I had never gone to one before, but I was trying everything to avoid shoulder surgery to correct an impingement problem. The orth surgeon recommended going in and removing about a half inch of bone, followed by a year of PT. After hearing that recommendation, my first thought was "well, I guess I'll learn to live with impingement." So I went to this young chiropractor, and now 9 months or so later, the shoulder pain is all gone. I can't say it all happened in his office ... he did have a lot of recommendations regarding my posture, seated position at my desk, in my car, etc. He also did some tissue manipulation to lengthen some muscles and work some knots out. The end result has been very positive, somehow. I'm not saying I'm a Chiro-believer, but in this sample of one, something good happened. Maybe he was operating more as a skilled PT than a chiropractor, however.
My wife and I have the best chiropractor in the world. As soon as you walk in the door, he says "I see that shoulder (or whatever is bothering us) needs some attention." He knows the human body, at least as far as the muscles, nerves, and bones, better than any MD I have ever gone to. If he can't fix the problem completely and immediately, at least he knows how to mitigate it. He has a lot of professional sports players as patients, and he and his former partner used to have Ross Perot as their patient, if that tells you anything.
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Re: Freedom

Post by WiseOne » Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am

Chiropractors certainly have a lot to offer. At their best, they're sort of supercharged physical therapists. Sounds like so far you haven't gotten the lunatic end of the philosophy though, like the back manipulation cures cancer stuff. They also don't necessarily understand what their manipulations might do in a case with serious back abnormalities - and be aware that neck manipulations can and do result in posterior circulation strokes (yes, I've seen several of these). Don't go to one for a significant problem unless it's been evaluated medically first. Desert's shoulder story is a good example: the ortho didn't have much to offer but thanks to that evaluation you knew what the problem was.
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Re: Freedom

Post by hardlawjockey » Sun May 20, 2018 6:25 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am
Chiropractors certainly have a lot to offer. At their best, they're sort of supercharged physical therapists. Sounds like so far you haven't gotten the lunatic end of the philosophy though, like the back manipulation cures cancer stuff. They also don't necessarily understand what their manipulations might do in a case with serious back abnormalities - and be aware that neck manipulations can and do result in posterior circulation strokes (yes, I've seen several of these). Don't go to one for a significant problem unless it's been evaluated medically first. Desert's shoulder story is a good example: the ortho didn't have much to offer but thanks to that evaluation you knew what the problem was.
I've been to a chiropractor and also two different physical therapists. As far as the chiropractor I think he was on the lunatic fringe because I remember sitting in his office while he explained that spine "sublixation" was to blame for nearly all the ills in the human body. After quite a few sessions that reached their climax in violent neck cracking to fix my problem of neck pain I finally saw the light. One day after the cracking he asked me if my headaches were getting any better. Since I had never once complained about headaches I finally realized he was completely FOS (Full of you know what).

As for the physical therapists for the same problem, the first one I went to gave me a set of exercises and the second one told me to stop all of those exercises because they were the wrong exercises. She was more into "pressure point therapy" for my neck pain, explaining that the real reason for the pain isn't really the neck but "pressure points" in the shoulders.

Well, my goddamn neck still hurts despite both therapies. My stepson is studying to be a physical therapist so I have to keep my opinion to myself that this probably isn't any kind of exact science at all but just a way of getting people in pain to transfer their money into your pocket.
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Re: Freedom

Post by hardlawjockey » Mon May 21, 2018 5:19 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:32 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:25 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:31 am
Chiropractors certainly have a lot to offer. At their best, they're sort of supercharged physical therapists. Sounds like so far you haven't gotten the lunatic end of the philosophy though, like the back manipulation cures cancer stuff. They also don't necessarily understand what their manipulations might do in a case with serious back abnormalities - and be aware that neck manipulations can and do result in posterior circulation strokes (yes, I've seen several of these). Don't go to one for a significant problem unless it's been evaluated medically first. Desert's shoulder story is a good example: the ortho didn't have much to offer but thanks to that evaluation you knew what the problem was.
I've been to a chiropractor and also two different physical therapists. As far as the chiropractor I think he was on the lunatic fringe because I remember sitting in his office while he explained that spine "sublixation" was to blame for nearly all the ills in the human body. After quite a few sessions that reached their climax in violent neck cracking to fix my problem of neck pain I finally saw the light. One day after the cracking he asked me if my headaches were getting any better. Since I had never once complained about headaches I finally realized he was completely FOS (Full of you know what).

As for the physical therapists for the same problem, the first one I went to gave me a set of exercises and the second one told me to stop all of those exercises because they were the wrong exercises. She was more into "pressure point therapy" for my neck pain, explaining that the real reason for the pain isn't really the neck but "pressure points" in the shoulders.

Well, my goddamn neck still hurts despite both therapies. My stepson is studying to be a physical therapist so I have to keep my opinion to myself that this probably isn't any kind of exact science at all but just a way of getting people in pain to transfer their money into your pocket.
As someone with chronic work related back and neck issues, I have had excellent success with chiropractors. Stay away from the ones who think they can fix everything or that every ailment is caused by subluxations. In their defense, that's probably what they are taught in school, but I think most of them come to realize that philosophy is over the top.

I think you might want to ask your doctor whether he/she thinks an MRI of your neck might be diagnostic.
As for the MRI, been there and done that, along with other tests and procedures racking up big $ for the doctors but to no avail for me. In fact I'm still fighting with the doctor about my requirement to pay for a part of the bill the insurance company said I didn't have to. No matter how many times I explain the situation to them they keep sending me the same bill over and over. Presumably they will eventually refer me to a collection agency which doesn't mean a whole lot to me at this point since I know how to dispute charges, not to mention I don't really have any need for a good credit score at this point in my life (it's currently 820, BTW).

Fortunately my kids provided me with some help in the form of something that you can legally get with a prescription now at the cost of $250 per visit every six months. I have what looks like a year supply for only $100 though I could be wrong about that.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Mountaineer » Mon May 21, 2018 7:10 pm

hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:19 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:32 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:25 pm


I've been to a chiropractor and also two different physical therapists. As far as the chiropractor I think he was on the lunatic fringe because I remember sitting in his office while he explained that spine "sublixation" was to blame for nearly all the ills in the human body. After quite a few sessions that reached their climax in violent neck cracking to fix my problem of neck pain I finally saw the light. One day after the cracking he asked me if my headaches were getting any better. Since I had never once complained about headaches I finally realized he was completely FOS (Full of you know what).

As for the physical therapists for the same problem, the first one I went to gave me a set of exercises and the second one told me to stop all of those exercises because they were the wrong exercises. She was more into "pressure point therapy" for my neck pain, explaining that the real reason for the pain isn't really the neck but "pressure points" in the shoulders.

Well, my goddamn neck still hurts despite both therapies. My stepson is studying to be a physical therapist so I have to keep my opinion to myself that this probably isn't any kind of exact science at all but just a way of getting people in pain to transfer their money into your pocket.
As someone with chronic work related back and neck issues, I have had excellent success with chiropractors. Stay away from the ones who think they can fix everything or that every ailment is caused by subluxations. In their defense, that's probably what they are taught in school, but I think most of them come to realize that philosophy is over the top.

I think you might want to ask your doctor whether he/she thinks an MRI of your neck might be diagnostic.
As for the MRI, been there and done that, along with other tests and procedures racking up big $ for the doctors but to no avail for me. In fact I'm still fighting with the doctor about my requirement to pay for a part of the bill the insurance company said I didn't have to. No matter how many times I explain the situation to them they keep sending me the same bill over and over. Presumably they will eventually refer me to a collection agency which doesn't mean a whole lot to me at this point since I know how to dispute charges, not to mention I don't really have any need for a good credit score at this point in my life (it's currently 820, BTW).

Fortunately my kids provided me with some help in the form of something that you can legally get with a prescription now at the cost of $250 per visit every six months. I have what looks like a year supply for only $100 though I could be wrong about that.
Re. neck issues. Been there, done that twice. First time about 5 years ago went to doctor, then for MRI and subsequent nerve tests to check for where the problem was (C7). Went to PT for a few weeks. Pain subsided somewhat with the help of heavy duty pain meds for a couple weeks. Was the OK for about 2 years. Second time about 2 1/2 years ago pain came on almost instantly (literally from zero to about a 10 on pain scale) and was so bad I could not drive or lift right arm. Did the doctor, PT, MRI, pain meds thing again. MRI showed a compressed disk pressing on spinal cord and arthritis just as it did before. Not much relief after the PT this time. Finally after about 6 weeks I decided to have a cortisone injection at C7 - I was somewhat concerned about having a needle stuck extremely close to my spinal cord. After a couple days pain diminished, after a couple weeks, no pain - all consistent with what the injection doctor said would happen. I'm not certain if it was the PT, time, or the cortisone injection. Only lingering symptom was and is a somewhat numb right index finger that the doctor said may never go away. I'm hoping the pain does not flare up again but who knows as the disk is still compressed and the arthritis is still present.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Freedom

Post by hardlawjockey » Mon May 21, 2018 8:35 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:10 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:19 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:32 pm

As someone with chronic work related back and neck issues, I have had excellent success with chiropractors. Stay away from the ones who think they can fix everything or that every ailment is caused by subluxations. In their defense, that's probably what they are taught in school, but I think most of them come to realize that philosophy is over the top.

I think you might want to ask your doctor whether he/she thinks an MRI of your neck might be diagnostic.
As for the MRI, been there and done that, along with other tests and procedures racking up big $ for the doctors but to no avail for me. In fact I'm still fighting with the doctor about my requirement to pay for a part of the bill the insurance company said I didn't have to. No matter how many times I explain the situation to them they keep sending me the same bill over and over. Presumably they will eventually refer me to a collection agency which doesn't mean a whole lot to me at this point since I know how to dispute charges, not to mention I don't really have any need for a good credit score at this point in my life (it's currently 820, BTW).

Fortunately my kids provided me with some help in the form of something that you can legally get with a prescription now at the cost of $250 per visit every six months. I have what looks like a year supply for only $100 though I could be wrong about that.
Re. neck issues. Been there, done that twice. First time about 5 years ago went to doctor, then for MRI and subsequent nerve tests to check for where the problem was (C7). Went to PT for a few weeks. Pain subsided somewhat with the help of heavy duty pain meds for a couple weeks. Was the OK for about 2 years. Second time about 2 1/2 years ago pain came on almost instantly (literally from zero to about a 10 on pain scale) and was so bad I could not drive or lift right arm. Did the doctor, PT, MRI, pain meds thing again. MRI showed a compressed disk pressing on spinal cord and arthritis just as it did before. Not much relief after the PT this time. Finally after about 6 weeks I decided to have a cortisone injection at C7 - I was somewhat concerned about having a needle stuck extremely close to my spinal cord. After a couple days pain diminished, after a couple weeks, no pain - all consistent with what the injection doctor said would happen. I'm not certain if it was the PT, time, or the cortisone injection. Only lingering symptom was and is a somewhat numb right index finger that the doctor said may never go away. I'm hoping the pain does not flare up again but who knows as the disk is still compressed and the arthritis is still present.
I had the nerve tests on both sides that I think you are talking about in two separate sessions in addition to the MRI and some other things the names of which I really don't remember. What I do remember is that they charged the insurance company a huge amount for every one of those tests but the insurance company paid only a fraction of it, and in some cases none of it, but said I wasn't responsible for the rest of it because of the contract they had with the doctor. How this all works out in the accounting department I have no idea.

Having been through several courses of PT, all with different exercises that I was supposed to follow but seeing no lasting result at all, I have grown very skeptical of PT and think it is mostly a scam with very little scientific evidence behind any of it.

If you continue to have pain I do recommend marijuana. I used it when I was younger for non-pain related purposes but back then it wasn't nearly as strong as what they are cultivating today. Strangely, it isn't really a pain-reliever. Actually, it seems to heighten your sensitivity to pain as well as everything else. What it really does is make it impossible for you focus on the sensation for very long. Something else always gets your attention and you completely forget about it until it comes up in the next cycle through your brain and you become aware again for a brief moment.
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Re: Freedom

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon May 21, 2018 11:49 pm

hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:35 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:10 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 5:19 pm


As for the MRI, been there and done that, along with other tests and procedures racking up big $ for the doctors but to no avail for me. In fact I'm still fighting with the doctor about my requirement to pay for a part of the bill the insurance company said I didn't have to. No matter how many times I explain the situation to them they keep sending me the same bill over and over. Presumably they will eventually refer me to a collection agency which doesn't mean a whole lot to me at this point since I know how to dispute charges, not to mention I don't really have any need for a good credit score at this point in my life (it's currently 820, BTW).

Fortunately my kids provided me with some help in the form of something that you can legally get with a prescription now at the cost of $250 per visit every six months. I have what looks like a year supply for only $100 though I could be wrong about that.
Re. neck issues. Been there, done that twice. First time about 5 years ago went to doctor, then for MRI and subsequent nerve tests to check for where the problem was (C7). Went to PT for a few weeks. Pain subsided somewhat with the help of heavy duty pain meds for a couple weeks. Was the OK for about 2 years. Second time about 2 1/2 years ago pain came on almost instantly (literally from zero to about a 10 on pain scale) and was so bad I could not drive or lift right arm. Did the doctor, PT, MRI, pain meds thing again. MRI showed a compressed disk pressing on spinal cord and arthritis just as it did before. Not much relief after the PT this time. Finally after about 6 weeks I decided to have a cortisone injection at C7 - I was somewhat concerned about having a needle stuck extremely close to my spinal cord. After a couple days pain diminished, after a couple weeks, no pain - all consistent with what the injection doctor said would happen. I'm not certain if it was the PT, time, or the cortisone injection. Only lingering symptom was and is a somewhat numb right index finger that the doctor said may never go away. I'm hoping the pain does not flare up again but who knows as the disk is still compressed and the arthritis is still present.
I had the nerve tests on both sides that I think you are talking about in two separate sessions in addition to the MRI and some other things the names of which I really don't remember. What I do remember is that they charged the insurance company a huge amount for every one of those tests but the insurance company paid only a fraction of it, and in some cases none of it, but said I wasn't responsible for the rest of it because of the contract they had with the doctor. How this all works out in the accounting department I have no idea.

Having been through several courses of PT, all with different exercises that I was supposed to follow but seeing no lasting result at all, I have grown very skeptical of PT and think it is mostly a scam with very little scientific evidence behind any of it.

If you continue to have pain I do recommend marijuana. I used it when I was younger for non-pain related purposes but back then it wasn't nearly as strong as what they are cultivating today. Strangely, it isn't really a pain-reliever. Actually, it seems to heighten your sensitivity to pain as well as everything else. What it really does is make it impossible for you focus on the sensation for very long. Something else always gets your attention and you completely forget about it until it comes up in the next cycle through your brain and you become aware again for a brief moment.
Actually it really IS a pain reliever. See https://www.leafly.com/news/health/cann ... vs-opioids for a report on some of the research demonstrating this.
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Re: Freedom

Post by hardlawjockey » Wed May 23, 2018 3:33 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:49 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:35 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:10 pm


Re. neck issues. Been there, done that twice. First time about 5 years ago went to doctor, then for MRI and subsequent nerve tests to check for where the problem was (C7). Went to PT for a few weeks. Pain subsided somewhat with the help of heavy duty pain meds for a couple weeks. Was the OK for about 2 years. Second time about 2 1/2 years ago pain came on almost instantly (literally from zero to about a 10 on pain scale) and was so bad I could not drive or lift right arm. Did the doctor, PT, MRI, pain meds thing again. MRI showed a compressed disk pressing on spinal cord and arthritis just as it did before. Not much relief after the PT this time. Finally after about 6 weeks I decided to have a cortisone injection at C7 - I was somewhat concerned about having a needle stuck extremely close to my spinal cord. After a couple days pain diminished, after a couple weeks, no pain - all consistent with what the injection doctor said would happen. I'm not certain if it was the PT, time, or the cortisone injection. Only lingering symptom was and is a somewhat numb right index finger that the doctor said may never go away. I'm hoping the pain does not flare up again but who knows as the disk is still compressed and the arthritis is still present.
I had the nerve tests on both sides that I think you are talking about in two separate sessions in addition to the MRI and some other things the names of which I really don't remember. What I do remember is that they charged the insurance company a huge amount for every one of those tests but the insurance company paid only a fraction of it, and in some cases none of it, but said I wasn't responsible for the rest of it because of the contract they had with the doctor. How this all works out in the accounting department I have no idea.

Having been through several courses of PT, all with different exercises that I was supposed to follow but seeing no lasting result at all, I have grown very skeptical of PT and think it is mostly a scam with very little scientific evidence behind any of it.

If you continue to have pain I do recommend marijuana. I used it when I was younger for non-pain related purposes but back then it wasn't nearly as strong as what they are cultivating today. Strangely, it isn't really a pain-reliever. Actually, it seems to heighten your sensitivity to pain as well as everything else. What it really does is make it impossible for you focus on the sensation for very long. Something else always gets your attention and you completely forget about it until it comes up in the next cycle through your brain and you become aware again for a brief moment.
Actually it really IS a pain reliever. See https://www.leafly.com/news/health/cann ... vs-opioids for a report on some of the research demonstrating this.
I can see what they mean but I'll stand by my point, based on anecdotal, experiential evidence so far. Based on my experience it is actually a pain-enhancer because it makes everything you are feeling MORE intense. Unlike opioids which I did have some experience with and NSAIDS it doesn't block the signals of pain from getting to your brain. It's just that when they get there they get lost in a sea of other sensations demanding even greater attention.
Libertarian666
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Re: Freedom

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:22 pm

hardlawjockey wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:33 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:49 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:35 pm


I had the nerve tests on both sides that I think you are talking about in two separate sessions in addition to the MRI and some other things the names of which I really don't remember. What I do remember is that they charged the insurance company a huge amount for every one of those tests but the insurance company paid only a fraction of it, and in some cases none of it, but said I wasn't responsible for the rest of it because of the contract they had with the doctor. How this all works out in the accounting department I have no idea.

Having been through several courses of PT, all with different exercises that I was supposed to follow but seeing no lasting result at all, I have grown very skeptical of PT and think it is mostly a scam with very little scientific evidence behind any of it.

If you continue to have pain I do recommend marijuana. I used it when I was younger for non-pain related purposes but back then it wasn't nearly as strong as what they are cultivating today. Strangely, it isn't really a pain-reliever. Actually, it seems to heighten your sensitivity to pain as well as everything else. What it really does is make it impossible for you focus on the sensation for very long. Something else always gets your attention and you completely forget about it until it comes up in the next cycle through your brain and you become aware again for a brief moment.
Actually it really IS a pain reliever. See https://www.leafly.com/news/health/cann ... vs-opioids for a report on some of the research demonstrating this.
I can see what they mean but I'll stand by my point, based on anecdotal, experiential evidence so far. Based on my experience it is actually a pain-enhancer because it makes everything you are feeling MORE intense. Unlike opioids which I did have some experience with and NSAIDS it doesn't block the signals of pain from getting to your brain. It's just that when they get there they get lost in a sea of other sensations demanding even greater attention.
Of course every individual can have different responses to any particular stimulus, but the statistical evidence is clear that the ready availability of medical pot reduces opioid overdoses quite a bit. I've never seen a report like yours about how it affects pain.

It is also a potent anti-inflammatory, in fact the only one that doesn't have very significant negative side effects on the organ that processes it (kidneys or liver).
hardlawjockey
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Re: Freedom

Post by hardlawjockey » Wed May 23, 2018 10:41 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:22 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:33 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:49 pm


Actually it really IS a pain reliever. See https://www.leafly.com/news/health/cann ... vs-opioids for a report on some of the research demonstrating this.
I can see what they mean but I'll stand by my point, based on anecdotal, experiential evidence so far. Based on my experience it is actually a pain-enhancer because it makes everything you are feeling MORE intense. Unlike opioids which I did have some experience with and NSAIDS it doesn't block the signals of pain from getting to your brain. It's just that when they get there they get lost in a sea of other sensations demanding even greater attention.
Of course every individual can have different responses to any particular stimulus, but the statistical evidence is clear that the ready availability of medical pot reduces opioid overdoses quite a bit. I've never seen a report like yours about how it affects pain.

It is also a potent anti-inflammatory, in fact the only one that doesn't have very significant negative side effects on the organ that processes it (kidneys or liver).
I have also heard that opioid overdoses decreased in Colorado after pot was legalized which didn't surprise me at all. Most of what you hear about on the news is about the negative effects, of which there have been some, if you are to believe what is presented on the surface. I have two grandsons aged 19 and 21 and they smoke all the time and I am concerned about some of the negative effects on young people that you hear about. Having said that, I was the same age as them when I started so I guess it didn't actually destroy my ambition to work hard and have a successful career after all, like they say it can. But I gave it up and never smoked again after their age. Until now, of course.

As far as my own experience with pain and not hearing any similar reports I find that surprising but it may just be how people tend to report the experience. To me, all of my senses are on high alert when I smoke and that includes pain. If I move the wrong way in bed and aggravate my back or neck, I am actually more aware of it than if I hadn't smoked, just like I am with a cracking noise in the attic which I would have never even noticed if I wasn't stoned. This is good in a way however, because you learn not to make those moves and how to relax so you don't feel it.
Libertarian666
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Re: Freedom

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:47 pm

hardlawjockey wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:41 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:22 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:33 pm


I can see what they mean but I'll stand by my point, based on anecdotal, experiential evidence so far. Based on my experience it is actually a pain-enhancer because it makes everything you are feeling MORE intense. Unlike opioids which I did have some experience with and NSAIDS it doesn't block the signals of pain from getting to your brain. It's just that when they get there they get lost in a sea of other sensations demanding even greater attention.
Of course every individual can have different responses to any particular stimulus, but the statistical evidence is clear that the ready availability of medical pot reduces opioid overdoses quite a bit. I've never seen a report like yours about how it affects pain.

It is also a potent anti-inflammatory, in fact the only one that doesn't have very significant negative side effects on the organ that processes it (kidneys or liver).
I have also heard that opioid overdoses decreased in Colorado after pot was legalized which didn't surprise me at all. Most of what you hear about on the news is about the negative effects, of which there have been some, if you are to believe what is presented on the surface. I have two grandsons aged 19 and 21 and they smoke all the time and I am concerned about some of the negative effects on young people that you hear about. Having said that, I was the same age as them when I started so I guess it didn't actually destroy my ambition to work hard and have a successful career after all, like they say it can. But I gave it up and never smoked again after their age. Until now, of course.

As far as my own experience with pain and not hearing any similar reports I find that surprising but it may just be how people tend to report the experience. To me, all of my senses are on high alert when I smoke and that includes pain. If I move the wrong way in bed and aggravate my back or neck, I am actually more aware of it than if I hadn't smoked, just like I am with a cracking noise in the attic which I would have never even noticed if I wasn't stoned. This is good in a way however, because you learn not to make those moves and how to relax so you don't feel it.
I'm not at all certain about the effects on youths, other than to say that it never seemed to stunt my interest in other things when I was young. However, I suspect the reporting is not particularly objective (as it is not on most controversial topics) and that there is also a confusion of cause and effect, or at least of correlation and causality.
WiseOne
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Re: Freedom

Post by WiseOne » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:56 am

Sorry MangoMan, but that's a propaganda piece. They are seizing on one negative study, and ignoring the case-control studies that are already out there and that DO show a link. I especially loved this little gem:
The assumption that the cervical manual-therapy intervention triggers CAD in rare cases has been dominated by single-case reports and retrospective case series or surveys from neurologists who naturally lack substantial methodological quality to establish definitive causality.
The article also gets the name of the condition wrong. It's vertebral artery dissection, which is more likely found in younger patients (i.e. below age 50), and is mainly due to neck trauma or connective tissue conditions like Marfan syndrome. Not "cervical artery." Dissection differs from the more usual cause of strokes, which is a blood clot. In a dissection, the wall of the artery separates into two layers, and blood gets in between them and then clots. It is often painful, which helps with clinical diagnosis. To see the dissection you need either a high quality MR angiogram, or vertebral angiography (arterial injection of contrast dye). These are typically only available at major stroke centers, so I suspect that dissections are underreported. Also note, in studies that don't focus on dissections and include all causes of stroke, the neck manipulation -> dissection link will get lost in statistical noise.

I agree with them about the generally limited value of case reports, but I have to say that when a healthy 28 year comes into the hospital with clinical signs of a posterior circulation stroke, and you do an MRI and find a dissection, and then they tell you they went to the chiropractor for a neck manipulation the day before and had no other source of recent neck trauma, it's kind of hard not to draw the obvious conclusion. Every neurologist has seen that, more than once. I can even tell you how many such cases were seen by a resident at my neurology training program over the course of 3 years: 12.

I'll also grant that the risk of vertebral artery dissection for a given neck manipulation session, or course of treatment, is very low. But it's not zero, and patients should be warned about the risk. Telling patients about risks of any procedure is part of informed consent, and the fact that chiropractors are fighting so hard to NOT tell patients about it is bordering on unethical, in my book.
WiseOne
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Re: Freedom

Post by WiseOne » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:05 am

Yes saw the link.

Doesn't mean no one should get cervical manipulation. It definitely serves a purpose. It's just that people need to be fully informed about risks. I have the same beef, btw, about much of preventive medicine. It's always presented to patients as an absolute good with no downsides, but there are indeed risks that are never discussed. For example, bowel ruptures are a known risk of colonoscopy. And mammograms can result in overdiagnosis of tumors, which can result in unnecessary surgery, chemotherapy and/or radiation. (To the tune of somewhere between 70-90% of all lesions detected.)
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