Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Shyster. I think that's the word that my 52 year old brain couldn't find last night. Typical shyster politician.
But with at least one difference. Trump's net worth is probably at least 100 times more than your typical senator say. So, the hope of a lot of people that voted for him (I wasn't one of those, having not voted in 30 years) was that maybe he would be less influenced by special interests. Probably isn't working out that way, but that was the hope.
I've listened to a few speeches he's given. He didn't sound incoherent to me. He sounded fine in my view. Maybe that doesn't say very much for me. But when I read the media accounts of what he had supposedly said, they didn't sound anything like what I heard with my own ears. Interesting.
But with at least one difference. Trump's net worth is probably at least 100 times more than your typical senator say. So, the hope of a lot of people that voted for him (I wasn't one of those, having not voted in 30 years) was that maybe he would be less influenced by special interests. Probably isn't working out that way, but that was the hope.
I've listened to a few speeches he's given. He didn't sound incoherent to me. He sounded fine in my view. Maybe that doesn't say very much for me. But when I read the media accounts of what he had supposedly said, they didn't sound anything like what I heard with my own ears. Interesting.
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Thanks for that link dualstow! I've seen articles too, but this one is exceptional and even makes the same link to the opioid crisis that I did. Also see the plot showing just how much of an anomaly the US is.dualstow wrote:WiseOne: I've been seeing a lot of articles about deaths of despair lately.
For Moda and others, I see have to draw a few dots for you:
employment pool <--> middle class jobs that don't require (expensive) college degrees
US resident middle class whites --> employment pool
Unskilled immigration (legal or illegal) --> SAME employment pool
Policies encouraging outsourcing of jobs to low-wage countries (especially middle class ones) --> fewer jobs available
balanced employment pool/jobs --> stable wages
employment pool > jobs --> pockets of unemployment, lack of job stability, sinking wages
high unskilled immigration --> greater demand for social services, higher state/local taxes --> more financial pressure on middle class
low wages/unstable job/unemployment --> social fabric starts to fall apart. (The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Politically, unbridled unskilled immigration is a highly desirable scenario. First, they get to enjoy a feeling of moral superiority by heaping benefits on Hispanic (mostly) immigrants. Second, cheap labor means more profits for their corporate contributors, who also enjoy a labor pool that can be mistreated with no repercussions. Third, the standard assumption is that these grateful immigrants will either become citizens or have children who are automatically citizens, all of whom will be more likely to vote Democratic.
I had thought at one time that Trump realized all this and was acting on it, and that his boorish behavior would be a small price to pay for righting the ship. I admit now that this was just wishful thinking on my part, and suffer just as much as the rest of you at his tweets, inability to manage White House staff, etc.
And incidentally, this is why I'm in favor of the Citizen's Dividend as well as low cost public university tuition. However, the Citizen's Dividend is impossible in the US as long as birthright citizenship and de facto open borders is in effect. Thus, still need to fix immigration.
Sorry, this thread started out about the Russia investigation and I got us off track. But then, that's what the Russia investigation is about, after all.
Last edited by sophie on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Shyster, that works!
I don't think he sounds incoherent, either. His tweets, which I read directly, are pretty rambly. Once upon a time, he said he was firing Comey b/c of the investigation, but the other day he tweeted again and said that had nothing to do with it. There are a lot of inconsistencies like that. EDIT: or maybe it's just Dan Scavino.
Yeah, I think a lot of people who voted for him must be disappointed at this point. Anti-TPP'ers, (not to be confused with anti-pp'ers), farmers, non-interventionists, swamp drainers, wall builders...
WiseOne, there was a whole chart (of despair) in the WSJ the other day, but I haven't tracked it down. I'll email it if I find it over the weekend.
I don't think he sounds incoherent, either. His tweets, which I read directly, are pretty rambly. Once upon a time, he said he was firing Comey b/c of the investigation, but the other day he tweeted again and said that had nothing to do with it. There are a lot of inconsistencies like that. EDIT: or maybe it's just Dan Scavino.
Yeah, I think a lot of people who voted for him must be disappointed at this point. Anti-TPP'ers, (not to be confused with anti-pp'ers), farmers, non-interventionists, swamp drainers, wall builders...
WiseOne, there was a whole chart (of despair) in the WSJ the other day, but I haven't tracked it down. I'll email it if I find it over the weekend.
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
WiseOne,
I don't want to straw man you but I think I'd like to put things in terms I can digest and then see if it's more-or-less what you are trying to say.
1) stagnant real wages for low-to-mid income Americans is one of the largest problems face.
2) one of the biggest bang-for-your-buck ways that our government can help that problem is by reducing low-skill immigration to the US.
Does that sum up your opinion pretty well?
Shying away from the "burden on social services" aspect to what you said for a moment.
I don't want to straw man you but I think I'd like to put things in terms I can digest and then see if it's more-or-less what you are trying to say.
1) stagnant real wages for low-to-mid income Americans is one of the largest problems face.
2) one of the biggest bang-for-your-buck ways that our government can help that problem is by reducing low-skill immigration to the US.
Does that sum up your opinion pretty well?
Shying away from the "burden on social services" aspect to what you said for a moment.
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
What's your evidence for this assertion?Libertarian666 wrote:The purpose of the "investigation" (actually, a witch hunt) is simple: to find something, ANYTHING, on Trump, or more likely one of his associates, that will allow that person to be criminally charged so they can take Trump down.
What's your best source/sources on this topic?
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
That's a refrain we hear over and over again, and I think it's just plain bull-s**t. Mainly it's a handy excuse that lets you ignore the problem.Desert wrote: The jobs the Mexicans are "taking" are jobs our lower class is demonstrably uninterested in doing.
If you add the disclaimer "at the low offered wages" that might be the case. However, consider that the reason for said low wages is that the companies offering them can fill the jobs at the low wage. If that were no longer the case, they'd have to start increasing wages. Yes, that would increase some prices, but since social service costs would go down it would probably be close to zero sum. Not to mention that if you don't mind taxes going up to improve lower class quality of life, why would you object to price increases that accomplish the same thing - only better?
Case in point: meatpacker jobs. That used to be a solid middle class job with decent working conditions and competitive salaries. With the ready availability of undocumented workers with no ability to unionize or demand better wages/working conditions, salaries have plummeted and injuries are common. Do a bit of searching and you'll find plenty of documentation of this.
There are clearly multiple factors at work (automation, free trade/outsourcing etc), but to throw up our hands and do nothing about the factors under our control, like immigration, is indefensible. Especially when tackling the root of the problem is likely to be far more cost effective than trying to contain the sequelae - like the opioid crisis.
So now I'm wishing (again) that Bernie Sanders won the primary!
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
+1. I suspect that those low budgets from China and Russia are spent much more effectively than ours. I also think that the rock to our fighter jet/battleship/etc scissors will be cheap countermeasures or sidesteps (drones, psyops, IO).Desert wrote:Also, much of "defense" spending is simply corporate welfare. Taxing the crap out of us to fund nonsense projects that fill the pockets of the "businesses" surrounding DC. I've unfortunately worked for one company that existed on the back of this nonsense. I'd estimate that half of military spending is wasted, amounting to nothing more than welfare for the wealthy. Don't fall for the tired old story.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
And that inefficient spending by the military has been going on for years. Circa 1985 I was in a large training meeting where an officer from the Philadelphia Naval Yard told me his typical day was 1/2 hour of work and 7 1/2 hours working to justify the upcoming budget. A second example was a friend of mine in the Air Force (in charge of base logistics and maintenance) was told he had to spend $1 million within the next month so they could maintain their budget for the following year; and of course the base needed only a fraction of that but they repainted pretty much everything that had just been painted in the past few months to spend the million.Kriegsspiel wrote:+1. I suspect that those low budgets from China and Russia are spent much more effectively than ours. I also think that the rock to our fighter jet/battleship/etc scissors will be cheap countermeasures or sidesteps (drones, psyops, IO).Desert wrote:Also, much of "defense" spending is simply corporate welfare. Taxing the crap out of us to fund nonsense projects that fill the pockets of the "businesses" surrounding DC. I've unfortunately worked for one company that existed on the back of this nonsense. I'd estimate that half of military spending is wasted, amounting to nothing more than welfare for the wealthy. Don't fall for the tired old story.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
The meatpacking cos want the cheap labor. Business writes the laws.
Military waste is maddening, but another perspective:
"In today's world of high-dollar, high-tech weaponry, once something is developed to a useful point and put into production, the production must be kept going throughout its service life (often several decades) to assure the continuing supply of parts and replacements. The production facilities and supply chain have to be kept active, and this is done by selling enough to keep the producers busy, and making money. Governments have to keep their weapons producers going to ensure their own supply. If things were shut down, and had to be restarted, it could take years to set up new facilities, train workers, build up a supply chain, etc.
They do what they can, within the limits of practicality, to restrict sales to those who won't use them in ways that are against US interests, but not always successfully. And, countries who want to buy arms will buy them, if not from the US, then from the Russians, Chinese, French, British, Israelis, or anyone else who needs to keep their own arms industry active. Arming other countries with US weaponry also provides some measure of control over them in access to parts, etc.
Hartung whines a good bit about Yemen, but the troubles in Yemen are mostly due to the Iranians arming and supporting their surrogates to take control of the country, as they've done in Lebanon with Hezbollah. The Saudis should be fighting them if they don't want an Iranian satellite on their border."
From the comments on https://mises.org/wire/donald-trump-and-art-arms-deal
Military waste is maddening, but another perspective:
"In today's world of high-dollar, high-tech weaponry, once something is developed to a useful point and put into production, the production must be kept going throughout its service life (often several decades) to assure the continuing supply of parts and replacements. The production facilities and supply chain have to be kept active, and this is done by selling enough to keep the producers busy, and making money. Governments have to keep their weapons producers going to ensure their own supply. If things were shut down, and had to be restarted, it could take years to set up new facilities, train workers, build up a supply chain, etc.
They do what they can, within the limits of practicality, to restrict sales to those who won't use them in ways that are against US interests, but not always successfully. And, countries who want to buy arms will buy them, if not from the US, then from the Russians, Chinese, French, British, Israelis, or anyone else who needs to keep their own arms industry active. Arming other countries with US weaponry also provides some measure of control over them in access to parts, etc.
Hartung whines a good bit about Yemen, but the troubles in Yemen are mostly due to the Iranians arming and supporting their surrogates to take control of the country, as they've done in Lebanon with Hezbollah. The Saudis should be fighting them if they don't want an Iranian satellite on their border."
From the comments on https://mises.org/wire/donald-trump-and-art-arms-deal
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Wow, thank you Desert, and incidentally I agree with everything you've said here - especially the part about the need for serious, data-driven discussion. Sadly, this administration and the reaction to it has made such a thing next to impossible. Not only now, but also for anyone who might try to bring this up in future. And incidentally the Dems have done their own form of demonizing large swaths of the population: calling anyone who wants to fix immigration racist, referring to the long-suffering lower/middle class as "deplorables" etc.Desert wrote:WiseOne, I think you make a great point, and one that's opened my mind some on this issue. I don't know a lot about meatpackers, but I do know that the construction profession wages have suffered as a direct result of lower cost immigrant labor.WiseOne wrote:That's a refrain we hear over and over again, and I think it's just plain bull-s**t. Mainly it's a handy excuse that lets you ignore the problem.Desert wrote: The jobs the Mexicans are "taking" are jobs our lower class is demonstrably uninterested in doing.
If you add the disclaimer "at the low offered wages" that might be the case. However, consider that the reason for said low wages is that the companies offering them can fill the jobs at the low wage. If that were no longer the case, they'd have to start increasing wages. Yes, that would increase some prices, but since social service costs would go down it would probably be close to zero sum. Not to mention that if you don't mind taxes going up to improve lower class quality of life, why would you object to price increases that accomplish the same thing - only better?
Case in point: meatpacker jobs. That used to be a solid middle class job with decent working conditions and competitive salaries. With the ready availability of undocumented workers with no ability to unionize or demand better wages/working conditions, salaries have plummeted and injuries are common. Do a bit of searching and you'll find plenty of documentation of this.
There are clearly multiple factors at work (automation, free trade/outsourcing etc), but to throw up our hands and do nothing about the factors under our control, like immigration, is indefensible. Especially when tackling the root of the problem is likely to be far more cost effective than trying to contain the sequelae - like the opioid crisis.
So now I'm wishing (again) that Bernie Sanders won the primary!
I'm thinking right now that the lower class situation is quite complex, and multi faceted (captain obvious, I know). I don't know if illegal immigration has had a larger or smaller effect than Walmart and Amazon, on lower class wages. And as you pointed out, there are many more factors, including automation, foreign outsourcing, etc. I do think it's time for a serious, data-driven discussion regarding these critically important topics. Sadly, this administration can't do that. Demonizing a huge swath of our population as the opening statement of a campaign simply guarantees division and obstruction. Nobody sane will give anything to this horrid administration, for obvious reasons. I do hope that we can elect a sane and sober thinker to our highest office, so we can have some serious conversations about this issue and others.
Shifting manufacturing jobs overseas to low-wage countries is another major issue that Trump identified in his campaign, but likely won't be able to do much about. Interestingly, this topic gets discussed on "Shark Tank" frequently, and there are always comments about shoddy quality, stealing of intellectual property and other things. I'm also curious about the costs of shipping, which must be higher for international than domestic. So I'd read about that once and came across the rather startling fact that emissions from transport "super-ships" easily eclipse that from the entire world's auto fleet - and is completely uncontrolled. I wonder if establishing shipping pollution standards for US companies importing from overseas would increase the costs enough to start shifting jobs back here - and without any need for tariffs.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Business wants the cheap labor. Similar to minimum wage, they threaten higher prices. Not necessarily, I think a megacorp like Starbucks with huge profits can pay more than small low-margin startups. OTOH that means less profits for shareholders, and we are shareholders...
Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Business absolutely wants cheap labor - because they get to not pay the associated costs of that directly. We, as taxpayers, do:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... obs-214216
Desert: one of Trump's saner platform planks was to harden E-verify and make it mandatory. It would be interesting to study its effects in states where it's been mandatory (e.g. Arizona), but so far I don't believe it's mandatory in any state with significant manufacturing or production jobs.
It would also be useful to find out what other First World countries do. Just about all of them have much stricter enforcement of worker eligibility rules than does the U.S., most notably the EU, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... obs-214216
Desert: one of Trump's saner platform planks was to harden E-verify and make it mandatory. It would be interesting to study its effects in states where it's been mandatory (e.g. Arizona), but so far I don't believe it's mandatory in any state with significant manufacturing or production jobs.
It would also be useful to find out what other First World countries do. Just about all of them have much stricter enforcement of worker eligibility rules than does the U.S., most notably the EU, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
First World countries charge higher taxes and provide better services/standard of living
But will they let anybody in for a chance to succeed? Taco trucks in Norway?
Edit for more substance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXK591Rp4BU
Recently watched "Where to invade next" Moore makes no effort to present both sides of any issue. Strange guy.
But will they let anybody in for a chance to succeed? Taco trucks in Norway?
Edit for more substance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXK591Rp4BU
Recently watched "Where to invade next" Moore makes no effort to present both sides of any issue. Strange guy.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
I wonder if Libertarians had overly strict parents. Might explain why the mere existence of police/authority offends them
Still, I think we would have a utopia if everyone were Libertarian. Many folks just have no interest in philosophy.
Still, I think we would have a utopia if everyone were Libertarian. Many folks just have no interest in philosophy.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
Perhaps not, but almost everyone believes in the Golden Rule.boglerdude wrote:I wonder if Libertarians had overly strict parents. Might explain why the mere existence of police/authority offends them
Still, I think we would have a utopia if everyone were Libertarian. Many folks just have no interest in philosophy.
As it applies to everyone except themselves, of course.
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Re: Making Sense of the Never-Ending, Never-Availing Trump Investigation
He who holds the gold makes the rules. (today's version)Libertarian666 wrote:Perhaps not, but almost everyone believes in the Golden Rule.boglerdude wrote:I wonder if Libertarians had overly strict parents. Might explain why the mere existence of police/authority offends them
Still, I think we would have a utopia if everyone were Libertarian. Many folks just have no interest in philosophy.
As it applies to everyone except themselves, of course.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.