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Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 am
by moda0306
pugchief wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:13 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:22 pm
She also wants to expand DACA and Temporary Protected Status, decriminalize illegal immigration, expand legal immigration, and take 5x more refugees than we do now. I would have to guess her hope is in all those people who don't live there yet.
Candidates tend to lean farther from center in the primaries and then move more to the middle in the general election, but she is so far from the center there's no coming back. I can't imagine most mainstream Dem voters think any of this stuff is a good idea.
These don’t appear to be particularly that far-left positions to me. Maybe “modestly left” and perhaps unpopular.

The wall itself has a 30-some percent approval rating if I remember correctly. So apparently unpopular positions can be floated and people still easily win.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:31 am
by shekels
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 am
pugchief wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:13 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:22 pm
She also wants to expand DACA and Temporary Protected Status, decriminalize illegal immigration, expand legal immigration, and take 5x more refugees than we do now. I would have to guess her hope is in all those people who don't live there yet.
Candidates tend to lean farther from center in the primaries and then move more to the middle in the general election, but she is so far from the center there's no coming back. I can't imagine most mainstream Dem voters think any of this stuff is a good idea.
These don’t appear to be particularly that far-left positions to me. Maybe “modestly left” and perhaps unpopular.

The wall itself has a 30-some percent approval rating if I remember correctly. So apparently unpopular positions can be floated and people still easily win.
I am very skeptical when you hear stats like this, 30% here 60 % there.
I have got to wonder how believable a firm that puts these stats together, and how Biased they are and what is their agenda.
As I recall Hillary was leading Trump in the "POLLS" .
If there is still a Silent Majority the pollsters would have not gotten their desired outcome as many People are NOT going to divulge that information in this day of Fascist Doxxing.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:01 am
by technovelist
pugchief wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:13 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:22 pm
She also wants to expand DACA and Temporary Protected Status, decriminalize illegal immigration, expand legal immigration, and take 5x more refugees than we do now. I would have to guess her hope is in all those people who don't live there yet.
Candidates tend to lean farther from center in the primaries and then move more to the middle in the general election, but she is so far from the center there's no coming back. I can't imagine most mainstream Dem voters think any of this stuff is a good idea.
That is why I'm expecting an epic blowout next year.
Not that I'm complacent. We need every sensible person to go out and vote for Trump and other Republicans. The Democrat politicians have gone mad.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm
by Cortopassi
From Warren's website: https://elizabethwarren.com/issues#latest-announcements
***
Decriminalize migration and refocus enforcement on serious criminal activity. Entering the country without authorization has always been a violation of civil immigration law, but thanks to a former segregationist Senator, it’s also a criminal violation. This additional criminal provision is totally unnecessary for border security, and for a century, it was rarely enforced. But since the early 2000s, it has been used to build and sustain a massive immigration detention complex. In 2016, over half of all federal criminal prosecutions were for immigration violations — more than prosecutions for terrorism, organized crime, hate crimes, or financial fraud.

***
This is something I've never considered and I would suspect is used to great effect to scare Americans. Illegal immigration will still break civil laws, just not criminal.

Assuming her statements are correct that for 100 years it was never enforced anyway, what's the concern? Why have laws on the books that aren't enforced? Do we want to waste resources criminally prosecution immigrants?

Just asking.

I have to say, about the only issues that I disagree with her on are climate change and free college/loan forgiveness

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:05 pm
by technovelist
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm
From Warren's website: https://elizabethwarren.com/issues#latest-announcements
***
Decriminalize migration and refocus enforcement on serious criminal activity. Entering the country without authorization has always been a violation of civil immigration law, but thanks to a former segregationist Senator, it’s also a criminal violation. This additional criminal provision is totally unnecessary for border security, and for a century, it was rarely enforced. But since the early 2000s, it has been used to build and sustain a massive immigration detention complex. In 2016, over half of all federal criminal prosecutions were for immigration violations — more than prosecutions for terrorism, organized crime, hate crimes, or financial fraud.

***
This is something I've never considered and I would suspect is used to great effect to scare Americans. Illegal immigration will still break civil laws, just not criminal.

Assuming her statements are correct that for 100 years it was never enforced anyway, what's the concern? Why have laws on the books that aren't enforced? Do we want to waste resources criminally prosecution immigrants?

Just asking.

I have to say, about the only issues that I disagree with her on are climate change and free college/loan forgiveness
The purpose is to dissuade people from coming here illegally.
Since the Democrats want people to come here illegally, of course they would be against enforcing such a law.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm
by dualstow
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm
...
This additional criminal provision is totally unnecessary for border security, and for a century, it was rarely enforced. But since the early 2000s, it has been used to build and sustain a massive immigration detention complex. In 2016, over half of all federal criminal prosecutions were for immigration violations — more than prosecutions for terrorism, organized crime, hate crimes, or financial fraud
...
There's certainly been some hyperbole on the right with regard to immigration. It's not World War Z out there, and it's not like they're gangs of rapists or barbarians at the gate. But, one can't ignore the sheer volume of new immigration, and immigration attempts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... ee_numbers

Most of us are the descendants of immigrants and of course if you don't count the original colonists, pretty much all of us are. Can we handle everyone seeking asylum now? Apparently even the processing facilities are overwhelmed. Long-term absorption? I don't know. My Italian buddy says he doesn't go to his city center in northern Italy anymore. There's a lot of immigration and not a lot of assimilation keeping pace there.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:57 pm
by Kriegsspiel
dualstow wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm
...
This additional criminal provision is totally unnecessary for border security, and for a century, it was rarely enforced. But since the early 2000s, it has been used to build and sustain a massive immigration detention complex. In 2016, over half of all federal criminal prosecutions were for immigration violations — more than prosecutions for terrorism, organized crime, hate crimes, or financial fraud
...
There's certainly been some hyperbole on the right with regard to immigration. It's not World War Z out there, and it's not like they're gangs of rapists or barbarians at the gate. But, one can't ignore the sheer volume of new immigration, and immigration attempts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... ee_numbers
In some places it might feel more like that than others:

"U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement says Montgomery County violated its own jail policy last week when it released an undocumented immigrant accused of rape despite an immigration detainer on file." link
"Two undocumented immigrants are accused of raping an 11-year-old girl on different occasions" link
"An illegal immigrant in Maryland is alleged to have crawled into the bed of a teenage girl while she was taking a nap and placed a knife against her throat before proceeding to rape her, according to authorities." link
"Another illegal immigrant has been charged with rape in a Maryland county with an infamous, crime-ridden history as a sanctuary jurisdiction." link
"A Honduran national in the United States illegally has been accused of raping his 15-year-old stepdaughter in suburban Maryland, the seventh such case in the area over the past five weeks." link
"A Nigerian national has been charged in Montgomery County, Maryland, for rape, marking the eighth illegal alien to be charged with rape or another sexual crime in the county since July 25. . . News of the arrest marks the latest rape or sexual charge by an illegal alien in Montgomery County since County Executive Marc Elrich signed a “sanctuary” order in July that largely forbids local authorities from cooperating with federal immigration authorities." link

"Six of the seven people arrested this month for a murder in July in Towson are members of the violent street gang MS-13 and were in the country illegally" link

There's also this site, which tracks sexual assaults of children by illegal immigrants in North Carolina.
My Italian buddy says he doesn't go to his city center in northern Italy anymore. There's a lot of immigration and not a lot of assimilation keeping pace there.
Hey that's not fair, I thought we were only talking about the US here!

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:32 pm
by flyingpylon
dualstow wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Most of us are the descendants of immigrants...
Not sure about anyone else, but my ancestors were legal immigrants, which is a different topic. Why conflate the two?

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:40 pm
by dualstow
flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:32 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Most of us are the descendants of immigrants...
Not sure about anyone else, but my ancestors were legal immigrants, which is a different topic. Why conflate the two?
A valid point. Mine, too. However, the argument can be made that some can’t afford to go the legal route if they want to make it. From our side of it, that does not mean that we should necessarily let them in or put them before those who do apply legally.

My great-grandparents (and one grandparent) had many hardships to overcome both before coming here and after arriving. One side spoke nine languages, but not English. So they learned English. The one grandparent was fleeing persecution. Still, as I’ve written elsewhere, I don’t think everyone fleeing the machetes of Honduras can go the legal route.

it’s not about conflating the two. It’s just very far from the point.

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:41 pm
by dualstow
Shoot, I didn’t see your post, kriegs. I’ll have to get to it tomorrow. Handmaid’s Tale awaits...

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:34 am
by dualstow
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:57 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:50 pm
...
This additional criminal provision is totally unnecessary for border security,
...
There's certainly been some hyperbole on the right with regard to immigration. It's not World War Z out there, and it's not like they're gangs of rapists
....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... ee_numbers
In some places it might feel more like that than others:

"U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement says Montgomery County violated its own jail policy last week when it released an undocumented immigrant accused of rape despite an immigration detainer on file." link
"Two undocumented immigrants are accused of raping an 11-year-old girl on different occasions" link
"An illegal immigrant in Maryland is alleged to have crawled into the bed of a teenage girl while she was taking a nap and placed a knife against her throat before proceeding to rape her, according to authorities." link
"Another illegal immigrant has been charged with rape in a Maryland county with an infamous, crime-ridden history as a sanctuary jurisdiction." link
"A Honduran national in the United States illegally has been accused of raping his 15-year-old stepdaughter in suburban Maryland, the seventh such case in the area over the past five weeks." link
"A Nigerian national has been charged in Montgomery County, Maryland, for rape, marking the eighth illegal alien to be charged with rape or another sexual crime in the county since July 25. . . News of the arrest marks the latest rape or sexual charge by an illegal alien in Montgomery County since County Executive Marc Elrich signed a “sanctuary” order in July that largely forbids local authorities from cooperating with federal immigration authorities." link

"Six of the seven people arrested this month for a murder in July in Towson are members of the violent street gang MS-13 and were in the country illegally" link

There's also this site, which tracks sexual assaults of children by illegal immigrants in North Carolina.

...
Hey that's not fair, I thought we were only talking about the US here!
Yeah. There’s also the infamous mass street assaults by fresh *legal* immigrants in Germany. (Oops, there I go, venturing out of the U.S. again).

The closer you are to this, the more strongly you must feel. I’m not in El Paso, nor in the hinterlands of Alaska. If any of the above happened to a loved one of mine, I’d throw the statistics out the window. How could I not.

For now, though, I’d like to know the percentage of illegal immigrants who are committing these crimes. I still think most of them are keeping our restaurant industry and other parts of the economy running. (Nonetheless, if I could wave a magic wand, they’d be back home).

I’d also like to see stats on that % relative to the rest of us, we the naturalized and descendants of the naturalized. Maybe moda could make those up find them or already has them.

You never hear about the sharks that swim close to shore and don’t bother anyone. O0

Re: The Left is Eating Itself Pt. II

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:43 am
by Cortopassi
One assault or rape is too many.

But like dualstow says, what's the percentage? Below is a recent yearly total. This happens a lot. Crazy.

Image