A good guy with a gun

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Libertarian666
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:34 am

Michellebell wrote:I think statistics supports this view, but common sense tells me that the legal NRA members and people who have legally acquired guns and know how to use them properly for self-defense are generally good, honest, law-abiding citizens. It's the people who illegally use guns that are the problem. I do find it very believable that burglaries and rapes are deterred by the fear of knowing that many people have guns to defend themselves.

I don't know how to fix the problem though. I have never been attached to guns as I shared earlier, but I don't see how we can talk about any logical solution for gun control that'll solve this problem. Even if every gun were to vanish, people who want to kill masses of people can just use a car or truck to easily plow through a crowd, as we've also seen happen recently.

It is definitely a culture problem but I don't know how we could go about making it better.
It's actually a much smaller problem than the media attention to it indicates.

A far bigger problem, but still one that affects a tiny section of the population, is blacks killing one another in the inner cities. Chicago alone accounts for more deaths in any given month than the mass shooting two days ago.

And if every gun were to vanish, then women would be far more likely to be raped because the average man has more physical strength than 99.9% of all women. Would that really be an improvement?
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Michellebell » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:38 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Michellebell wrote:I think statistics supports this view, but common sense tells me that the legal NRA members and people who have legally acquired guns and know how to use them properly for self-defense are generally good, honest, law-abiding citizens. It's the people who illegally use guns that are the problem. I do find it very believable that burglaries and rapes are deterred by the fear of knowing that many people have guns to defend themselves.

I don't know how to fix the problem though. I have never been attached to guns as I shared earlier, but I don't see how we can talk about any logical solution for gun control that'll solve this problem. Even if every gun were to vanish, people who want to kill masses of people can just use a car or truck to easily plow through a crowd, as we've also seen happen recently.

It is definitely a culture problem but I don't know how we could go about making it better.
It's actually a much smaller problem than the media attention to it indicates.

A far bigger problem, but still one that affects a tiny section of the population, is blacks killing one another in the inner cities. Chicago alone accounts for more deaths in any given month than the mass shooting two days ago.

And if every gun were to vanish, then women would be far more likely to be raped because the average man has more physical strength than 99.9% of all women. Would that really be an improvement?
Good points.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by WiseOne » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:24 pm

The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.

It is known that households with a gun are statistically at higher risk of gun violence, that rape often happens with people known to the victim, and that often alcohol or drugs is involved so neither party is in shape to use a firearm safely/accurately. Comparing statistics like rape rates vs gun prevalance is fraught with problems, because of the usual issues with spurious correlations like the correlation between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths. Moreover, I found this statement on random website, although unfortunately with no supporting study or data:
in the states where guns are allowed on campus – Utah and Colorado specifically – incidents of forcible rape have increased and at a rate higher than the national average.
That should be verifiable.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Maddy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:14 pm

WiseOne wrote:The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.

It is known that households with a gun are statistically at higher risk of gun violence, that rape often happens with people known to the victim, and that often alcohol or drugs is involved so neither party is in shape to use a firearm safely/accurately. Comparing statistics like rape rates vs gun prevalance is fraught with problems, because of the usual issues with spurious correlations like the correlation between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.
I agree. The definition of "rape" is so fuzzy and all-inclusive these days that you couldn't possibly do a study that would mean anything.

My own experience with guns is quite mixed. There was a time in my life when I carried concealed most of the time. I was working in a high-crime, gang-infested area and had to walk a distance to my car in the dark. It made sense then. The downside, both then and now, is that carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility. Every minute you have to be thinking, "Where is my purse?" "Are there children in the room?" And because you've essentially taken on the responsibility of responding--potentially with deadly force--to whatever might arise, you have to be constantly aware of what's happening around you. Ultimately, I found it too much to think about day in and day out.

There was one incident, many years ago, when I was walking alone to my car late at night. A car slowed down, pulled up along the sidewalk and trailed me for half a minute or so. The car pulled over 50 feet ahead of me, and a creepy-looking guy got out and started moving toward me without saying a thing. I stopped, planted my feet firmly, drew my pistol with both hands, and said, "You take one more step toward me and I'll blow your balls off." He turned, walked back to his car, and drove away. I'm pretty sure the story would have been different had I not had a gun with me that night.

Out here in the country, it's a totally different situation. I carry a pistol frequently on the outside of my clothing, as do the majority of my neighbors. I'm frankly more concerned about cougars than two-legged predators most of the time, but there's no harm in having it known that I can protect myself from both.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:18 pm

WiseOne wrote:The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.
I'm not sure why you need studies to prove this.

It is an undeniable fact that men are far stronger physically than women.

Given that, let's look at the possible scenarios:

1. If neither party has a gun, the woman has virtually no chance to protect herself effectively.
2. If the man has a gun and the woman doesn't, it's pretty much the same as #1, due to the disparity in strength between the sexes.
3. If both parties have guns, obviously it doesn't matter who is stronger, just who is the better shot.
4. But if the woman has a gun and the man doesn't, she is very likely to be able to protect herself effectively.

Note that in none of these scenarios is the woman worse off for having a gun.

However, there are studies that show this as well. Here are a few facts, with citations in the original article (see below):

Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks were completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed.

Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with guns. Men also benefit from using guns, but the benefits are smaller: Men are 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury.

(from http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-my ... note-97-19)
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:22 pm

Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote:The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.

It is known that households with a gun are statistically at higher risk of gun violence, that rape often happens with people known to the victim, and that often alcohol or drugs is involved so neither party is in shape to use a firearm safely/accurately. Comparing statistics like rape rates vs gun prevalance is fraught with problems, because of the usual issues with spurious correlations like the correlation between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.
I agree. The definition of "rape" is so fuzzy and all-inclusive these days that you couldn't possibly do a study that would mean anything.

My own experience with guns is quite mixed. There was a time in my life when I carried concealed most of the time. I was working in a high-crime, gang-infested area and had to walk a distance to my car in the dark. It made sense then. The downside, both then and now, is that carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility. Every minute you have to be thinking, "Where is my purse?" "Are there children in the room?" And because you've essentially taken on the responsibility of responding--potentially with deadly force--to whatever might arise, you have to be constantly aware of what's happening around you. Ultimately, I found it too much to think about day in and day out.
I'm pretty sure that there are ways of concealing a weapon on your person so that you don't have to worry about where your purse is. But as a man I may have more options in that regard.
Maddy wrote: There was one incident, many years ago, when I was walking alone to my car late at night. A car slowed down, pulled up along the sidewalk and trailed me for half a minute or so. The car pulled over 50 feet ahead of me, and a creepy-looking guy got out and started moving toward me without saying a thing. I stopped, planted my feet firmly, drew my pistol with both hands, and said, "You take one more step toward me and I'll blow your balls off." He turned, walked back to his car, and drove away. I'm pretty sure the story would have been different had I not had a gun with me that night.
But that's "just" an anecdote, not data! :P

Seriously, though, you have just demonstrated the value of carrying a weapon.
Maddy wrote: Out here in the country, it's a totally different situation. I carry a pistol frequently on the outside of my clothing, as do the majority of my neighbors. I'm frankly more concerned about cougars than two-legged predators most of the time, but there's no harm in having it known that I can protect myself from both.
Absolutely.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:28 pm

"According to data retrieved from the Centers for Disease Control, there were 7 firearm-related homicides for every 100,000 Americans in 1993 (see light blue line in chart). By 2013 (most recent year available), the gun homicide rate had fallen by nearly 50 percent to only 3.6 homicides per 100,000 population."

And this is during a time when the number of guns per person in the US went up by about 50%!

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/cnsn ... 3-and-2013
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by eufo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:33 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
eufo wrote:It is a cultural problem for sure. No one wants to fix it, so it persists. I think more people will have to die before we can collectively will a change. It's sad.
Exactly what do you propose as a change, assuming whatever you proposed would be enacted as law?
Who said a law could fix a culture?

You can't dictate the kind of change we need. We need to give a shit about each other as fellow human beings. That's step one...
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by eufo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:35 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:Is it really a cultural issue, or a technological glitch? There have always been murderous psychopaths, but now they have better weapons. On the flip side, so do women, which is good because there have always been rapists too.
Killing each other isn't new, but neither really is our culture... it's something that has evolved over a millennia.
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:37 pm

eufo wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
eufo wrote:It is a cultural problem for sure. No one wants to fix it, so it persists. I think more people will have to die before we can collectively will a change. It's sad.
Exactly what do you propose as a change, assuming whatever you proposed would be enacted as law?
Who said a law could fix a culture?

You can't dictate the kind of change we need. We need to give a shit about each other as fellow human beings. That's step one...
I misunderstood you. I thought your reference to "collectively will[ing] a change" referred to legislation.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by eufo » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:09 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
eufo wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: Exactly what do you propose as a change, assuming whatever you proposed would be enacted as law?
Who said a law could fix a culture?

You can't dictate the kind of change we need. We need to give a shit about each other as fellow human beings. That's step one...
I misunderstood you. I thought your reference to "collectively will[ing] a change" referred to legislation.

Sorry for the confusion.
Ahh... I see. No problem.

I'm not a gun owner, but I strongly support people having the choice to own them. Yeah, they're dangerous, but so is heart disease and we allow McDonald's to sell Big Macs. ;)
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by ochotona » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:52 pm

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So if I were Lord of Earth, I'd have Militias organized by County. The commander in charge of the County Militia would be an elected official. They would not report to the County Sheriff, they would be equal leaders of County government.

The Militia commander would have the right to exclude (with documented cause, not arbitrarily) from the Militia anyone he or she thought was unfit to handle weapons.

Militia members would have to qualify to bear each class of weapon. Including full auto. That means training, tests, and continuing education.

If you got excluded from one County's Militia, you could always move to another County. Obviously, Cook County, IL would be vastly different than Harris County, TX.

Revolvers, single-shot, over-under or side-by-side rifles / shotguns excluded from Militia requirements.

If you commit a crime with a gun or possess it illegally or loan someone your weapon and it gets used in a crime you go away for a long time. If you murder, you hang.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:53 pm

ochotona wrote:"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So if I were Lord of Earth, I'd have Militias organized by County. The commander in charge of the County Militia would be an elected official. They would not report to the County Sheriff, they would be equal leaders of County government.

The Militia commander would have the right to exclude (with documented cause, not arbitrarily) from the Militia anyone he or she thought was unfit to handle weapons.

Militia members would have to qualify to bear each class of weapon. Including full auto. That means training, tests, and continuing education.

If you got excluded from one County's Militia, you could always move to another County. Obviously, Cook County, IL would be vastly different than Harris County, TX.

Revolvers, single-shot, over-under or side-by-side rifles / shotguns excluded from Militia requirements.

If you commit a crime with a gun or possess it illegally or loan someone your weapon and it gets used in a crime you go away for a long time. If you murder, you hang.
I have certainly seen worse proposals.

But the initial clause, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State", explains why the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It is not a limitation on that right.
Last edited by Libertarian666 on Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by ochotona » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:There are certainly worse proposals.
I take that as a compliment! ;)
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:55 pm

ochotona wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:There are certainly worse proposals.
I take that as a compliment! ;)
Thank you.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by WiseOne » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:56 am

Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote:The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.

It is known that households with a gun are statistically at higher risk of gun violence, that rape often happens with people known to the victim, and that often alcohol or drugs is involved so neither party is in shape to use a firearm safely/accurately. Comparing statistics like rape rates vs gun prevalance is fraught with problems, because of the usual issues with spurious correlations like the correlation between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.
I agree. The definition of "rape" is so fuzzy and all-inclusive these days that you couldn't possibly do a study that would mean anything.

My own experience with guns is quite mixed. There was a time in my life when I carried concealed most of the time. I was working in a high-crime, gang-infested area and had to walk a distance to my car in the dark. It made sense then. The downside, both then and now, is that carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility. Every minute you have to be thinking, "Where is my purse?" "Are there children in the room?" And because you've essentially taken on the responsibility of responding--potentially with deadly force--to whatever might arise, you have to be constantly aware of what's happening around you. Ultimately, I found it too much to think about day in and day out.

There was one incident, many years ago, when I was walking alone to my car late at night. A car slowed down, pulled up along the sidewalk and trailed me for half a minute or so. The car pulled over 50 feet ahead of me, and a creepy-looking guy got out and started moving toward me without saying a thing. I stopped, planted my feet firmly, drew my pistol with both hands, and said, "You take one more step toward me and I'll blow your balls off." He turned, walked back to his car, and drove away. I'm pretty sure the story would have been different had I not had a gun with me that night.
Great story Maddy, and nice observations about gun ownership. I went to medical school in a high crime urban area, so I can definitely relate. I used to carry around an extra wallet with $40 in it. Several of my classmates bought guns. The university has since walled off the campus & housing area, after spending a lot of time on useless blather about fostering good relationships with the natives etc. (Yes, they built a wall!!).

Libertarian666 - yes, Maddy's story is an anecdote. The NRA's suggestion was that rape rates have dropped, or would drop if more women carried guns. That's not statistically supported. Comparing two unrelated bits of info unfortunately doesn't prove the case, because you have the usual issues where A & B appear to be [anti]correlated because they're both related to an unknown factor C, and you can't prove causality from a correlation.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:53 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
ochotona wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:There are certainly worse proposals.
I take that as a compliment! ;)
Thank you.
I liked the county-level militia part. I was just thinking the other day about how it would be cool if the National Guard/Reserves/Active Duty weren't the only options for military-type stuff. Well, I guess you have the other "Militias" but from what I've seen they're not what people would be looking for. A county-level one could be a fun, active hobby for most people, and would give other people something "productive" to do with their energies and feel good about. And in the bigger scheme of things, a country with, essentially, over 3,000 well-regulated LGOPs to control is nigh-on unconquerable in the traditional military sense. IIRC, Switzerland and Israel are set up like this.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:39 am

WiseOne wrote:
Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote:The notion that women carrying guns can reduce risk of rape is interesting, so I looked into it briefly. Unfortunately, this appears to be an NRA-generated myth. It may be true but there's no study or set of data that show this convincingly.

It is known that households with a gun are statistically at higher risk of gun violence, that rape often happens with people known to the victim, and that often alcohol or drugs is involved so neither party is in shape to use a firearm safely/accurately. Comparing statistics like rape rates vs gun prevalance is fraught with problems, because of the usual issues with spurious correlations like the correlation between Nicolas Cage movies and swimming pool deaths.
I agree. The definition of "rape" is so fuzzy and all-inclusive these days that you couldn't possibly do a study that would mean anything.

My own experience with guns is quite mixed. There was a time in my life when I carried concealed most of the time. I was working in a high-crime, gang-infested area and had to walk a distance to my car in the dark. It made sense then. The downside, both then and now, is that carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility. Every minute you have to be thinking, "Where is my purse?" "Are there children in the room?" And because you've essentially taken on the responsibility of responding--potentially with deadly force--to whatever might arise, you have to be constantly aware of what's happening around you. Ultimately, I found it too much to think about day in and day out.

There was one incident, many years ago, when I was walking alone to my car late at night. A car slowed down, pulled up along the sidewalk and trailed me for half a minute or so. The car pulled over 50 feet ahead of me, and a creepy-looking guy got out and started moving toward me without saying a thing. I stopped, planted my feet firmly, drew my pistol with both hands, and said, "You take one more step toward me and I'll blow your balls off." He turned, walked back to his car, and drove away. I'm pretty sure the story would have been different had I not had a gun with me that night.
Great story Maddy, and nice observations about gun ownership. I went to medical school in a high crime urban area, so I can definitely relate. I used to carry around an extra wallet with $40 in it. Several of my classmates bought guns. The university has since walled off the campus & housing area, after spending a lot of time on useless blather about fostering good relationships with the natives etc. (Yes, they built a wall!!).

Libertarian666 - yes, Maddy's story is an anecdote. The NRA's suggestion was that rape rates have dropped, or would drop if more women carried guns. That's not statistically supported. Comparing two unrelated bits of info unfortunately doesn't prove the case, because you have the usual issues where A & B appear to be [anti]correlated because they're both related to an unknown factor C, and you can't prove causality from a correlation.
It is not necessary to have statistics to support statements that are known to be true from a priori data.

In this case, it is undeniably true that the average man is far stronger than the average woman. Thus, without an equalizer (weapon) to mitigate this disparity, women are extremely vulnerable to rape. With such a weapon, their vulnerability is decreased.

However, for those who still want statistics, here is an analysis:

"Abstract
What are the consequences when rape victims resist rapists? Analysis of a nationally representative sample of rape incidents reported in the National Crime Surveys for 1979 to 1985 yields the following findings: (1) Victims who resist are much less likely to have the rape completed against them than nonresisting victims, a pattern generally apparent regardless of the specific form of resistance; (2) The form of resistance that appears most effective in preventing rape completion is resistance with a gun, knife, or other weapon; (3) Most forms of resistance are not significantly associated with higher rates of victim injury. The exceptions are unarmed forceful resistance and threatening or arguing with the rapist; (4) Even these two forms of resistance probably do not generally provoke rapists to injure their victims, as ancillary evidence concerning assaults and robberies indicates that resistance rarely precedes injury. Attack against the victim appears to provoke victim resistance, rather than the reverse; (5) Only about three percent of rape incidents involve some additional injury that could be described as serious. Thus it is the rape itself that is nearly always the most serious injury the victim suffers. Consequently, refraining from resistance in order to avoid injury in addition to the rape is a questionable tradeoff."

(https://www.jstor.org/stable/800645)
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:20 pm

I feel like, if I was a female, I would just want to have the choice to carry a pistol, the statistics be damned.

(also, WiseOne, what was your extra wallet with $40 for?)
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:36 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:I feel like, if I was a female, I would just want to have the choice to carry a pistol, the statistics be damned.

(also, WiseOne, what was your extra wallet with $40 for?)
She carries $4000 in the other one. O0
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by WiseOne » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:33 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:I feel like, if I was a female, I would just want to have the choice to carry a pistol, the statistics be damned.

(also, WiseOne, what was your extra wallet with $40 for?)
It was for if I got mugged. $40 was theoretically enough to appease a mugger, and that way you wouldn't lose your driver's license, credit cards etc. There was a horrid story of a grad student who was killed because he was only carrying $5 (which is often all I had in my real wallet). A cheaper solution than a gun, that thankfully I never had to use. Probably because I moved to a safer neighborhood after the first year. Interestingly, my cousin the perennial idealist took a job in the same city, and chose to live in a neighborhood so dangerous even police wouldn't go there. His place was robbed too many times to count and he was repeatedly mugged, and after a couple of years we all talked some sense into him and got him to move.

The better solution was to go somewhere else where I didn't have to constantly think about protecting myself from criminals. It was such a relief to remove that issue from my life. I guess the university finally did something about the problem once they realized the effect that the crime issue was having on prospective students & faculty. Political correctness be damned.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:37 am

WiseOne wrote:
Kriegsspiel wrote:I feel like, if I was a female, I would just want to have the choice to carry a pistol, the statistics be damned.

(also, WiseOne, what was your extra wallet with $40 for?)
It was for if I got mugged. $40 was theoretically enough to appease a mugger, and that way you wouldn't lose your driver's license, credit cards etc. There was a horrid story of a grad student who was killed because he was only carrying $5 (which is often all I had in my real wallet). A cheaper solution than a gun, that thankfully I never had to use. Probably because I moved to a safer neighborhood after the first year. Interestingly, my cousin the perennial idealist took a job in the same city, and chose to live in a neighborhood so dangerous even police wouldn't go there. His place was robbed too many times to count and he was repeatedly mugged, and after a couple of years we all talked some sense into him and got him to move.
So there really are such people? Wow. My experience has been that those who scream the loudest about bigotry are the first to protect themselves by living in areas where they don't have to worry about inconvenient truths.
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Have you no human decency?

"The average police response time in large cities can range anywhere from five minutes to an hour. In rural areas, it can take even longer."


http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/10/men ... n-colbert/
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Re: A good guy with a gun

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:47 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Have you no human decency?

"The average police response time in large cities can range anywhere from five minutes to an hour. In rural areas, it can take even longer."


http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/10/men ... n-colbert/
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
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