How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

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WiseOne
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by WiseOne » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:16 pm

So a DPOA with a document handy that can be given to all medical providers (hospital, outpatient MDs etc) seems like it would work - about as well as anything else, anyway. Good to know.

Worry not about epileptics - that diagnosis cannot by itself get you declared incompetent. In real life, there is a very high bar for this. In New York, you need two physicians' written statements (and yes, I've been one of the required opinions on occasion), and that's only step 1.

Did anyone else wonder if this report is really true as written? As I was reading it, I was increasingly amazed that everyone involved wasn't prosecuted to the hilt, stripped of professional licenses etc. Medical malpractice with unsupported dementia diagnoses and declarations of incompetence that don't follow required protocols, multiple instances of grand larceny, misuse of federal Medicare funds etc...I mean what does it take to to get the law interested in you in Las Vegas? It also sounded like a very well established network of corruption was required for this to happen, which makes it fairly unique to Las Vegas. So maybe yes, bad situation and maybe the FBI should get involved if Las Vegas/Nevada is too incompetent to deal with it, but at least it's not happening nationwide/routinely as the article suggests.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:08 pm

WiseOne wrote:So a DPOA with a document handy that can be given to all medical providers (hospital, outpatient MDs etc) seems like it would work - about as well as anything else, anyway. Good to know.

Worry not about epileptics - that diagnosis cannot by itself get you declared incompetent. In real life, there is a very high bar for this. In New York, you need two physicians' written statements (and yes, I've been one of the required opinions on occasion), and that's only step 1.

Did anyone else wonder if this report is really true as written? As I was reading it, I was increasingly amazed that everyone involved wasn't prosecuted to the hilt, stripped of professional licenses etc. Medical malpractice with unsupported dementia diagnoses and declarations of incompetence that don't follow required protocols, multiple instances of grand larceny, misuse of federal Medicare funds etc...I mean what does it take to to get the law interested in you in Las Vegas? It also sounded like a very well established network of corruption was required for this to happen, which makes it fairly unique to Las Vegas. So maybe yes, bad situation and maybe the FBI should get involved if Las Vegas/Nevada is too incompetent to deal with it, but at least it's not happening nationwide/routinely as the article suggests.
It's not just Las Vegas: http://aaapg.net/coalition-partners/.

And for the rest, professional misconduct is rampant in both law and medicine, and not just in Las Vegas either. The only surprise here is that it was eventually uncovered, and that was due not to the boards and other official bodies that are supposed to protect the public, but due to a citizen who finally got the press to expose it.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Maddy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 am

WiseOne wrote:Worry not about epileptics - that diagnosis cannot by itself get you declared incompetent. In real life, there is a very high bar for this. In New York, you need two physicians' written statements (and yes, I've been one of the required opinions on occasion), and that's only step 1.
So what is the particular fear that propels these folks to seek treatment outside the state?
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by WiseOne » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:43 am

Losing their driver's license.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Maddy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:06 am

This Wall Street Journal article describes a situation in which a Washington State court nullified a preexisting DPOA and entered an order of guardianship. http://aaapg.net/wall-street-journal-ab ... or-adults/ So it does occasionally happen.

What appears to distinguish this case from the usual situation in which a DPOA would obviate the need for a guardianship is the fact that the DPOA was held by one of two brothers who were constantly at war with one another. I'm going to make an educated guess and surmise that these brothers were in and out of court with one petty squabble after another, and the judge simply got tired of it. I've seen the same thing happen, more often than you'd think, in probate cases where one of several infighting siblings is the named executor. At a certain point (usually corresponding to the point at which his lunch hour gets delayed), the judge has had enough of the bickering and appoints an independent, institutional PR (whose fees promptly drain the estate). The judge undoubtedly goes home with a clear conscience, muttering "It serves them all right."
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by WiseOne » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:45 am

Yet another scary article. Geez!

I told my 81 year old mother about this. She's smart enough that if she ever gets a knock on the door like this, she'll simply refuse to cooperate. I told her to call me and/or her lawyer instead.

It seems one of the main purposes of this is to drain money from the elderly victims. All of us on this board are potential future victims since we are amassing the kind of savings that could attract such scams - but perhaps not enough to survive a $400K scourge. What do you all think is the best defense, should something like this happen to one of us? Sounds like a DPOA might help but isn't guaranteed to.
Staying put and refusing to hand over passwords, safe deposit box keys, and account numbers could at least delay matters until you can get a lawyer involved. Preferably one who knows you well already.

Also, minimize medications especially in the elderly where side effects are magnified, unless benefits are clear. I personally would refuse all preventative medications after age 75 (and frankly I wouldn't even take them now). A lot of the cognitive impairment you see in the elderly is medication-induced - not sure how much as it's not tracked, but I would guess that it's responsible for a significant chunk of dementia diagnoses. And where dementia is present, medications can exacerbate symptoms significantly. Apart from the usual suspects of pain meds and anti-depressants/anti-psychotics/sleep aids, big culprits are proton pump inhibitors, meds given to improve bladder control, BP lowering meds, and some meds for cardiac arrhythmias most notably beta blockers.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Maddy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:11 am

WiseOne wrote: What do you all think is the best defense, should something like this happen to one of us?
I'm counting on WiseOne to provide me a note saying I'm compos mentis. :)
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Maddy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:29 am

One important defensive strategy is to stay the heck out of the social service system.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by WiseOne » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:54 am

Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote: What do you all think is the best defense, should something like this happen to one of us?
I'm counting on WiseOne to provide me a note saying I'm compos mentis. :)
Will happily do so for anyone posting on this board who is unlucky enough to get that knock on the door.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by bedraggled » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:12 am

WiseOne,

You may have an opportunity to provide service for a fee.

We members could obtain a letter from you that avers to our mental competence. With your qualifications, the cost would not be an issue.

This might be worth kicking around. The life of this thread could be extended!

Members, 65 and over, should find this useful. (N. B., I am not yet 65, still a youngster).
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:54 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote: What do you all think is the best defense, should something like this happen to one of us?
I'm counting on WiseOne to provide me a note saying I'm compos mentis. :)
Will happily do so for anyone posting on this board who is unlucky enough to get that knock on the door.
Thanks for that offer.

If I find myself in this situation, I'm going to say "I'm not letting you in. Go away and come back if you get a warrant." Then I will call my lawyer.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Maddy » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:56 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:If I find myself in this situation, I'm going to say "I'm not letting you in. Go away and come back if you get a warrant." Then I will call my lawyer.
Well, the crazy thing is that in this kind of situation a warrant probably would not be required. I've never looked into it. But when you think about the analogous situation involving people who are alleged to be a danger to themselves by reason of mental illness, it's clear that the protection of the Fourth Amendment applies only very loosely, and quite often only after the accused person has been involuntarily detained for evaluation and treatment for a number of days.

The hazy, ephemeral thing called the "parens patriae power" (the power of the state to help those who cannot help themselves) follows its own set of rules.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:42 pm

Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:If I find myself in this situation, I'm going to say "I'm not letting you in. Go away and come back if you get a warrant." Then I will call my lawyer.
Well, the crazy thing is that in this kind of situation a warrant probably would not be required. I've never looked into it. But when you think about the analogous situation involving people who are alleged to be a danger to themselves by reason of mental illness, it's clear that the protection of the Fourth Amendment applies only very loosely, and quite often only after the accused person has been involuntarily detained for evaluation and treatment for a number of days.

The hazy, ephemeral thing called the "parens patriae power" (the power of the state to help those who cannot help themselves) follows its own set of rules.
If they say "We don't need a warrant", then I will say "I'm still not letting you in."

Then I will call my lawyer and get him to stop it.

He knows EVERYONE around here.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by eufo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:18 am

Maddy wrote:[...]and quite often only after the accused person has been involuntarily detained[...]
Somehow read this as ACCURSED person... I was like... daaaammmnnn!
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by WiseOne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:06 am

Would they really make like United Airlines and drag you away with physical force, possibly breaking down the door in the process? In all cases described, the elderly folks in question went voluntarily in the end.

It occurred to me that another way to minimize the risk of this happening is not to live in obvious retiree "hot spots" that are away from major metro areas, Like Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Sarasota. I'm sure they attract predators like April Parks in the article about the Las Vegas cases, and have creaky small-town justice systems that are too easy for one corrupt person to manipulate.

This may be a good reason to stay put in NYC where there are lots of people in their 90s and even 100s living independently. I've never heard of anyone being forced out of their home, but I do know of several instances where building staff and neighbors have helped keep an eye on residents with questionable mental status. A cooperative building is essentially a small village where everyone knows everyone else.
Libertarian666's solution of living in the rural equivalent of this is another good solution. I think it's the in between situation that is ripe for this kind of problem.
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Re: How you can lose virtually all of your rights without a meaningful hearing

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:07 pm

WiseOne wrote:Would they really make like United Airlines and drag you away with physical force, possibly breaking down the door in the process? In all cases described, the elderly folks in question went voluntarily in the end.
If they did that, I would be able to buy my own island after the lawsuit.
WiseOne wrote: It occurred to me that another way to minimize the risk of this happening is not to live in obvious retiree "hot spots" that are away from major metro areas, Like Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Sarasota. I'm sure they attract predators like April Parks in the article about the Las Vegas cases, and have creaky small-town justice systems that are too easy for one corrupt person to manipulate.

This may be a good reason to stay put in NYC where there are lots of people in their 90s and even 100s living independently. I've never heard of anyone being forced out of their home, but I do know of several instances where building staff and neighbors have helped keep an eye on residents with questionable mental status. A cooperative building is essentially a small village where everyone knows everyone else.

Libertarian666's solution of living in the rural equivalent of this is another good solution. I think it's the in between situation that is ripe for this kind of problem.
Probably so.
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