Soooooo mad at Vanguard!!

[MomTo2Boys]

We have our investments at Vanguard, and I've been reasonably happy with them (not outrageously thrilled, but reasonably happy) for many years until this past Friday.

Background: I've been getting emails from Vanguard about some vote they're having (I totally don't know what it's about and don't care so I haven't voted) and I've been ignoring them because, like I said, I don't care, and in addition I don't understand the topics and thus haven't wanted to vote.

So Friday out of the blue during business hours I got a phone call on my cell phone - the number of which I pretty much don't give out to anyone - from some lady in California. She started the call very solemnly telling me that we were "talking on a recorded line" (and I'm thinking - what are you? A bill collector? I don't owe any bills!) and then she starts in on me about how I have to vote in this Vanguard thing. And I'm like - excuse me? Who are you and what gives you the right to tell me what to do?

Turns out - she's not from Vanguard - she's from a third party that Vanguard gave my information to (!!!!!), and she was calling me to absolutely harass the living daylights out of me to try to get/force me to vote. When I told her I didn't want to because I didn't understand the issues and didn't care about whatever was going on, she lit into me about how I HAD to vote and yadda yadda. I completely lost it at her and told her that I had NEVER authorized Vanguard to disclose my personal information and cell phone number to a third party and her company had darn straight better never ever call me ever again.

Then I called Vanguard and demanded to speak to a supervisor. The non-supervisor on the phone wouldn't transfer me to a supervisor until I told him why I wanted one, so I told him, and he was all - Well, you have to vote and by law we couldn't call and solicit your vote so we gave your information to a third party so THEY could call you. And I was like First of all, you have NO BUSINESS disclosing my information to a third party, and second of all, I want to talk to a supervisor!

He put my on a silent hold for 20 minutes and then came back on and told me that I couldn't talk to a supervisor because no supervisor was available. I literally hung up on him.

I am SO ANGRY.

Has this happened to anyone else? I am so furious with Vanguard that I'm temped to pull my investments and take them elsewhere. I feel like they have truly breached my trust. The last thing I should have to worry about is some random person from some random business harassing the living daylights out of me over some vote for something related to Vanguard...because Vanguard gave them my contact information. I'm so angry!

[EDIT: I also forgot to add that when I was talking to the woman from the third party company in California, she told me that I had to vote because if I didn't vote it could mean that something would happen that would cost Vanguard money. And I thought - you have GOT to be KIDDING ME. So Vanguard is having a third party harass me to force me to vote so that they save money on something.]

[Kriegsspiel]

I saw a thread on bogleheads about someone else who was mad that Vanguard got a third party to call them. In their case, a lady was calling them from her home with a crying baby in the background. I must have voted in it since I haven't gotten any calls. If you don't want them to be able to call you anymore, say the words "opt out" and hang up.

[Mark Leavy]

I've been ignoring the Vanguard vote also (for exactly the same reasons).

My phone is setup so that only white-listed calls get through - all others go directly to voicemail. I've probably gotten 5 voicemails on the Vanguard vote over the last week.

[Xan]

Like many others, I had no plans to vote in whatever this vote thing was.

But I found out here that the big thing on the ballot is whether or not Vanguard's S&P 500 fund will continue to be an S&P 500 fund, or whether it will turn into some kind of social justice fund.

You have every right to be ticked off at Vanguard. But it might help you to know why they think this one is so important. And it is.

Be ticked off. But you really should vote to prevent the corruption of the fund.

[stuper1]

I got a mailer, but not a call yet. If I want to prevent the corruption of the fund, do I vote Yes or No?

[Xan]

There's only one question (the last one) dealing with that, and it's prefaced by "the board recommends you vote AGAINST this" or some such. You can't miss it.

[stuper1]

Right, but should I vote Yes or No if I don't want the social justice filter? If I have to figure it out for myself, I will just ignore it.

[Xan]

Right, but should I vote Yes or No if I don't want the social justice filter? If I have to figure it out for myself, I will just ignore it.

I'm not sure what you want me to tell you: is reading the question too hard to figure out? It'll say something like "Prevent the Fund from investing in genocide Y/N". Vote N.

[dualstow]

I voted early on, thus no phone call, but it's good tho see you back on the forum, Mom. Wish it were for a happier reason, of course.

ADDED: earlier thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9152&p=163915&hilit=Vote#p163915

[Maddy]

Didn't we recently discuss the fact that two-step verification protocols frequently use cell phone numbers as an authenticator, and that the latest wave of account hacking involves the hijacking of cell phones? Good to know that Vanguard thinks so little of security.

[dualstow]

two-factor authentication

Interesting. I never did sign up for 2fa with Vanguard, though it was out of laziness.

[mathjak107]

i pulled all my money i had with vanguard out last month . i had about 10% of assets with them as i use fidelity 90% .

without so much as a heads up they dropped all beneficiaries on joint accounts . they no longer allow beneficiaries on joint accounts . in their ridiculous wisdom they decided that common disaster's do not happen . they want you to spend the dough on a trust even if you don't need one .

i noticed it purely by accident when they started giving you that box at log on that shows your account features and it was saying no beneficiaries listed .

i knew we did have them so i tried adding them again and couldn't so i called them . yep, they did away with beneficiaries on joint accounts .
you can break them up in to 2 individual accounts but why have to bother .

i said forget it , not worth the trouble . so i decided based on all the perks from chases's private client account and the chase premium sapphire reserve credit card it was far more lucrative to convert my vanguard s&p 500 fund to voo and let jpm/chase baby sit those shares instead . so we made arrangements for an acat transfer .

but wait it gets better .

chase had some questions for vanguard so after being passed around from person to person they gave us a number to call the next day for their acat dept .

we go to the bank to make the call and all we got is a recording to hold . we did all our other work and in 1 hour 15 minutes no one answered the phone . nothing except please hold ,all reps are busy .

we actually called in on a few phones while waiting .we ended the calls as we finished what we had to do and figured it out on our own .

in 30 years with fidelity i never had to call more than 1 person . they would take the info and run with the ball to whoever they needed to involve .

without even knowing if it was a transfer in to vanguard or out they passed us around like a hot potato .

that was the worst customer service i ever experienced from a brokerage .

getting back to the beneficiary issue , apparently vanguard thinks we are to stupid to decide on our own what is right for us when it comes to estate planning unlike fidelity , the banks and other brokerages i looked in to . ..

no one else feels that way as every account we have whether fidelity or the banks all allow beneficiaries on joint accounts

the fact vanguard thinks you are smart enough to put beneficiaries on individual accounts but not smart enough on joint is nonsense .

bye bye vanguard.

got a nice trip coming up for almost free from all the perks we got from chase and jpm on top of a list of perks that look like our grocery list . because we are doing a lot of trips now those perks are worth a few thousand dollars to us . .

[dualstow]

mathjak, I'm glad you brought this up. I only check beneficiaries once a year, but my largest account is joint with my dad. The account was set up when I was under ten years old, and I never took Dad's name off.

My wife is the beneficiary. Or was, last time I checked.Hmm.

Edit: it's just like you said.

[mathjak107]

yep .. i was quite annoyed . there was little reason to do that to us . no one else i have money with did something like that and especially did not notify most of us . that should have required a sign to acknowledge in my opinion .

but for me jpm/chase worked out great and i would have never thought to move anything there had i not been pissed at vanguard

[mathjak107]

here is vanguards official reply .

i disagree 100% with their reasoning . we have no use for this kind of trust . only trust we needed was called a disclaimer trust and it was for estate estate tax purposes at one time . it serves no purpose in this case for not having beneficiaries . everything we have passes via beneficiaries to our kids . nice and clean and simple .

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Thank you for your email regarding Transfer on Death (TOD).

Vanguard has decided that, in most cases, a TOD plan offers minimal
benefits on joint accounts. Beneficiaries on joint accounts are used to
cover the rare possibility that all the joint account owners will die
simultaneously. Such provisions are beyond the scope of Vanguard's TOD
plan.

I have reviewed this with our management, specifically surrounding the
possibility of simultaneous death of joint owners. While the TOD plan could
allow for the transfer of ownership rights in the unlikely event of
simultaneous death, it may not do so in a tax-efficient manner and may
limit the heirs' options.

Other estate-planning tools, like wills or trusts, allow investors to
utilize strategies that the TOD plan does not have room for, and they could
increase the amounts that heirs actually receive. Additionally, relying on
TOD plans increases the possibility of heirs being responsible for final
expenses, debts and taxes without adequate resources left in the estate to
cover such costs.

As you may know, a Vanguard TOD plan overrides the terms of a client's
trust, will, or other estate planning documents. However, community
property laws outline rules for ownership rights, and these laws remain
intact. This makes it more likely for assets to be transferred to an
inappropriate party and for disputes among beneficiaries. Since our TOD
plan is a Pennsylvania contract, it is interpreted under Pennsylvania law.
The laws of your state of residence may include more favorable provisions.

If you want to ensure that your assets will transfer to listed
beneficiaries for a joint account, we encourage you to contact an estate
planning professional. The estate planning professional will be able to
advise you on what steps you can take to ensure that the assets in your
joint account are transferred to the appropriate beneficiaries.

Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mr Vacuum]

My wife got a call about the Vanguard vote. I didn’t pay attention to the provenance of the call. In retrospect it’s a little strange because we have no investment accounts with them directly but hold some Vanguard ETFs through Fidelity. I did not receive a call. We both received online proxy material messages through fidelity.com, which is expected.

[dualstow]

Sorry to bring back the alternate branch of the thread, but it still falls under "soo mad at Vanguard."

I contacted my rep via the issue that math brought up, the dropping of a beneficiary in accounts that are both joint and taxable. I said that it was dropped and without warning. She wrote back "Why do you think that?" I told her I don't think it, I saw it, providing the relevant details, and could she please send the necessary forms and list of things to do to turn my joint into a personal/individual account.

She replied with a link to a form, and no other words. I thanked her and asked, "Was I correct?" No answer.

Meanwhile, I saw a WSJ article yesterday describing the massive inflows continuing at Vanguard. They're way over four trillion in assets now. They're going to turn into the Toyota of investing. That is, those cars once sold themselves so that sales reps were aloof, even rude.

[mathjak107]

i won't give them a dime anymore , but that's me . service every step of the way could not have been worse . i felt like a ping pong ball getting bounced around and ultimately passed right in to a dead end . no one even monitors those phones in that dept they pass you to for incoming calls .

we call fidelity , one person takes the info , they run with the ball and whatever needs to be done is done . i hope you all have better service than i did and we were voyager too . .

[dualstow]

For what it's worth, she did follow up yesterday.

[boglerdude]

Missed a call from "1053621" and got a voicemail asking me to vote. No thread on this at Bogleheads?

edit
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=228535

[Tortoise]

Bump.

Escrow just opened on a house that my wife and I are buying, and I had planned for the earnest money deposit and down payment to come from my Vanguard money market account via personal checks. But once escrow opened, I discovered that the funds must be wired.

Long story short, Vanguard does not make it easy to wire money into accounts that have not already been linked to your Vanguard account via the micro-deposit verification process, which takes several days to complete. The only way to wire money to such an “unverified” account is to print out a paper form, fill it out, get something called a “medallion signature,” and either mail or fax the form to Vanguard. (Are we in the 21st century yet?) Not very convenient when a wire transfer is required on short notice.

So I called Vanguard to get some clarification on the process. Not fun. Quite frustrating. The young guy who took my call didn’t know the difference between an ACH transfer and a wire transfer, and I had to explain it to him three (3) times in succession, each time involving him putting me on hold for a couple of minutes while he attempted to relay my question to a more knowledgeable colleague or supervisor but came back each time with the wrong answer because he misunderstood me and asked the wrong question. I almost couldn’t believe it.

What a hassle.

[mathjak107]

i don't miss vanguard and their hassles one bit . deciding to get a chase private client account and their sapphire reserve card not only got us a few thousand in perks but offers so many other perks too . all we are doing is having chase watch our VOO etf to qualify.

we actually got a free trip planned from ny to new orleans with all we got out of the deal from shifting . we even get free bank wires .

[WiseOne]

Bump.

Escrow just opened on a house that my wife and I are buying, and I had planned for the earnest money deposit and down payment to come from my Vanguard money market account via personal checks. But once escrow opened, I discovered that the funds must be wired.

Long story short, Vanguard does not make it easy to wire money into accounts that have not already been linked to your Vanguard account via the micro-deposit verification process, which takes several days to complete. The only way to wire money to such an “unverified” account is to print out a paper form, fill it out, get something called a “medallion signature,” and either mail or fax the form to Vanguard. (Are we in the 21st century yet?) Not very convenient when a wire transfer is required on short notice.

So I called Vanguard to get some clarification on the process. Not fun. Quite frustrating. The young guy who took my call didn’t know the difference between an ACH transfer and a wire transfer, and I had to explain it to him three (3) times in succession, each time involving him putting me on hold for a couple of minutes while he attempted to relay my question to a more knowledgeable colleague or supervisor but came back each time with the wrong answer because he misunderstood me and asked the wrong question. I almost couldn’t believe it.

What a hassle.

Good for Vanguard. This sounds like a very reasonable safety precaution for wiring money from a brokerage. See recent thread at Bogleheads about an identity thief cleaning out an elderly man's retirement account, because the brokerage had minimal to no safeguards.

What you need to do is transfer the money from Vanguard to your bank using ACH, then, wire from there. Wires require a setup that takes a bit of time, so it's not instant. You might be better off using "sneakernet" to get your lawyer a cashier's check, which is usually how it's done.

[dualstow]

Good point, WiseOne!

For what it's worth, I've been hearing complaints about tenants trying to set up regular wire and other transfers to their landlords, and there were problems and delays aplenty. So it's not just Vanguard.

But yes, it's frustrating to get a new, confused representative at an old brokerage house. Maybe it's a symptom of the recent investor bloat they are seeing.

[Tortoise]

But yes, it's frustrating to get a new, confused representative at an old brokerage house. Maybe it's a symptom of the recent investor bloat they are seeing.

Is the investor bloat unique to Vanguard, or have you heard of it happening at other brokerages recently?

Could it have something to do with the historically low interest rates we've had in recent years, pushing people away from regular savings accounts and CDs and into brokerage accounts in search of higher returns?