Hillary's new book: "It Was My Turn"

[moda0306]

Anyone with the ability to think freely is annoyed and sickened by "the media." Enough using that as an excuse! Talk about a red-herring. "The media" may be informing establishment liberals and establishment conservatives. WHO CARES!? This isn't about "the media." This is about the areas where Trump is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, bombastic, dangerous or nefarious in his intentions.

Taking this at face value...

How do you find out about areas where Trump is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, etc, when the main source of information you have is the media?

What is "the media?" If there's no source of current events you trust, then why do you come to arguments with facts about anything? You never seem to be quite this skeptical of the media on any other topic du jour... why now so much?

It takes a lot of effort to sift through the garbage to pull out nuggets of truth.

I totally agree. Trump makes it harder by telling so many lies so fast that his supporters don't even seem to care about what comes out of his mouth anymore.

I wish I had more time and energy for that, but my impression (Impression from what? What "the media" has shown you? Have you met the president or are you gleaning what you know from "the media?) so far is that while Trump is not someone I would ever want to work for and at times has conducted himself in a manner unbefitting his office, he's not nearly as bad as the portrayal suggests. What portrayal?
Is there only one? Does "authoritarian sexual-assaulting buffoon" count?

Oddly, I've been thinking more about this since I start plowing through Ken Burns' "Vietnam" series on PBS. It is outstanding and well worth watching. The presentation paints a rather shocking portrait of self-delusion, rationalization, and gamesmanship in the US government & media that is if anything worse than what's going on today. The basis for the war was essentially made up. Originally it was about Vietnam trying to win independence from France, and the U.S. started out as - and could have remained - an ally. The "communism" label which somehow came into the picture turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You realize that "the media" essentially produced that documentary, right? Why believe one thing in it that so-called "documentary"? It's either hearsay or facts that "we don't have the time to pull out the nuggets of truth" out of.

Sound familiar?

I understand some of your frustration, but you are essentially saying that there is NO news source that is accurately calling Trump out in negative ways that you can identify. You aren't trying. Probably because you're not emotionally motivated to give liberals any sort of gratification when they hit a few decent points against the utter buffoon in control of nukes right now while you complain about "the media."

[moda0306]

How do you find out about areas where Trump is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, etc, when the main source of information you have is the media?

It takes a lot of effort to sift through the garbage to pull out nuggets of truth. I wish I had more time and energy for that, but my impression so far is that while Trump is not someone I would ever want to work for and at times has conducted himself in a manner unbefitting his office, he's not nearly as bad as the portrayal suggests.



Sound familiar?

Actually I saw some interviews of women who worked for Trump who said that he was a very fair and kind person to work for. With all the media craziness, it was really surprising for me to see that. But really they seemed very genuine. When I thought about it some more, I thought about how his businesses have been very successful. I think that a lot of people assume rich people only get rich through corruption, and of course there are many who have done that. But I also think that for a lot of them, they become rich because they are smart, fair, good bosses, inspire hard workers, and provide services or goods that are a benefit to people.

I'd agree that the media portrayals of him are terrible, probably worse than the media portrayals of some of the most murderous political figures and dictators in history. Just the fact that they are THAT bad makes me have a hard time believing them.

He's a complete slimeball. Quit blaming "the media." I don't need to listen to ANY establishment media commentary on him to know this and neither do you. And he's rich because of his daddy.

If liberals had elected Kanye West president, you people would be losing your f*king minds... and you'd probably be partially right to do so. Any attempt to blame "the media" for portrayals of him being an arrogant a$$hat would be laughable, and this forum would be rightfully deriding liberals as having gone beyond the pale in the garbage they're willing to put in office.

[stuper1]

He's a complete slimeball.

Could you point us to the sources you have found most valuable in arriving at this opinion?

[moda0306]

I understand some of your frustration, but you are essentially saying that there is NO news source that is accurately calling Trump out in negative ways that you can identify. You aren't trying. Probably because you're not emotionally motivated to give liberals any sort of gratification when they hit a few decent points against the utter buffoon in control of nukes right now while you complain about "the media."

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how an "utter buffoon" could win the Presidency against the combined forces of:
1. 90% of the media
2. The Democratic establishment
3. The Republican establishment
4. The most feared political machine since Tammany Hall.

Want to give that a shot?

Because he's a celebrity, and stroked the anti-establishment and jingoistic wing of the R's to win the nomination, Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate, and "the media" wanted ratings so they gave him airtime. It was only negative insofar as he consistently made an ass of himself.

The Republican (and dem, really) establishment will do just fine with him. He's falling right in line, absent being a complete buffoon, but I've always said that Republicans would give a monkey the white house if they'd sign a tax cut for them. Didn't think I'd live to see the day.

[moda0306]

He's a complete slimeball.

Could you point us to the sources you have found most valuable in arriving at this opinion?

A massive amount of what comes out of his mouth is pure slime-ball material. The best of what he says is at-best neutral. I mean I've HEARD he's done shady things, but those are hearsay and unlike some folks I don't believe everything I hear that confirms my suspicions.

Keep in mind, slime-ball isn't an objective, factual term. It's describes a repulsive person. I find him repulsive. It's up to interpretation. Yes, even when Lou Dobbs is slobbing all over him I also find him repulsive (more-so in-fact) than usual. This has nothing to do with politics (his authoritarian attitude also bothers me). Just how he behaves as a person. We can all sit around here and pretend that he's just a bit bombastic and anti-establishment. Or we can call him what he is... a rapey, braggadocios, serial-lying, embarassment of a f'king human being to have in any position of power, much less over our nuclear arsenal.

And yes... Hillary is also a slime-ball in her own way, but most of those have to do with being a Richard Nixon-esque figure. Not the next coming of Chairman Mao.

But you don't see half the people on this board ever having said anything remotely supportive of Hillary. In-fact I don't think I've seen one positive thing said about her or in defense of her on this board. Like I said... if half of us were supporting or defending or blaming "the media" during a Kanye West presidency, I'd be equally dumbfounded. And the asinine amount of ridicule some would receive would be well-deserved.

[moda0306]

How do you find out about areas where Trump is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, etc, when the main source of information you have is the media?

It takes a lot of effort to sift through the garbage to pull out nuggets of truth. I wish I had more time and energy for that, but my impression so far is that while Trump is not someone I would ever want to work for and at times has conducted himself in a manner unbefitting his office, he's not nearly as bad as the portrayal suggests.



Sound familiar?

Actually I saw some interviews of women who worked for Trump who said that he was a very fair and kind person to work for. With all the media craziness, it was really surprising for me to see that. But really they seemed very genuine. When I thought about it some more, I thought about how his businesses have been very successful. I think that a lot of people assume rich people only get rich through corruption, and of course there are many who have done that. But I also think that for a lot of them, they become rich because they are smart, fair, good bosses, inspire hard workers, and provide services or goods that are a benefit to people.

I'd agree that the media portrayals of him are terrible, probably worse than the media portrayals of some of the most murderous political figures and dictators in history. Just the fact that they are THAT bad makes me have a hard time believing them.

The media, with just one exception, have been lying their asses off about Trump ever since he got the nomination of the Republican party.

A number of them, including CNN, NBC, the Washington Post and MSNBC, have been caught red-handed making stuff up.

But those who hate Trump don't care. He's "literally Hitler" to them, and anyone who thinks he is even slightly better than that is a moron, a bigot, and whatever other pejoratives they can think of.

This is why he was elected, and why he will be re-elected if things continue the way they have been.

So keep it up, Trump-haters! You're doing exactly what you need to do to help him!

Quit putting out this bullsh!t excuse. Plenty of people haven't called him "literally H!tler." Many, many people find him to be a rapey slimeball authoritarian embarassment. THAT is the accurate accusation, and I'd love to see you, a so called f*king anarchist, to try to defend this authoritarian statist against THOSE accusations.

Trump has also been lying his ass off. "The media" isn't our president. Trump is. Do you find him to be an honest person? I believe you've answered this question "yes," before. Own that one more time in front of us all, please...

I don't hate Trump. I find him repulsive. Adults realize the difference. Children pretend to be anarchists while defending an authoritarian-leaning shit-stain on human history who's grabbed you by the p*ssy and apparently won't let go.

[Michellebell]

With all the stuff that I've seen, it sounds like Trump is more honest than most politicians we've seen lately. And as far as treatment of women, Bill Clinton has been the most sexist president of recent years. Also, Hillary was treating those women pretty badly too. So here she claims to be all for women's rights but when her husband mistreated women, she went against them. Trump apologized for that conversation and I've seen no evidence that he's ever actually done anything like assault or sexually harass women.

But women have been having a lot of fun with wearing the p*ssy hats and marching on Washington. My sister-in-law voted for Trump but then her mother hopped on a bus and marched to protest with a bunch of women. I think she just did it to go along with the crowd and have a fun time. Seriously I don't know what she was fighting for. I'm interested to see what happens with the economy, jobs, terrorist attacks, North Korea, etc. over the next eight years. RIght now there are lot of difficult problems our country is facing, but even if Trump ultimately does a lot of good for our country, he'll be seen as nothing more than a p*ssy grabber to many people I'm sure.

I also don't remember any women marching in Washington after all the scandal was revealed with Bill Clinton, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I do remember a lot of people defending him. I was only in high school at the time.

[Maddy]

I have difficulty even understanding the characterization of Trump as "rapey," although this image appears to be almost obsessively dominating the thinking of the disgruntled Left.

The particular comment that has sent the Left into high worble has nothing to do with rape, nor does it convey a disrespectful attitude toward women generally. The comment related specifically to the hoards of gold-digging women--essentially high-priced hookers--who wouldn't think of getting an actual job but who would open their legs on a dime for a billionaire real estate mogul. Trump's attitude toward these women was, in my view, appropriately disrespectful. He knew what their game was.

Likewise, the women who threw themselves at Trump for a chance to claw their way to the top knew what the game was and believed that they possessed sufficient sexual power to win it. These women were not victims.

Trump, unlike the majority of his predecessors to the White House, actually has a reputation for treating women very well. Unlike many of his predecessors, he appears to actually like and respect competent, professional women.

If there was even one comment from Trump that suggested something non-consensual, I would rethink my position on this.

[moda0306]

Maddy,

Here you are...

I moved on her, and I failed. I'll admit it.

I did try and fuck her. She was married.

And I moved on her very heavily. In fact, I took her out furniture shopping. She wanted to get some furniture. I said, "I'll show you where they have some nice furniture." I took her out furniture—I moved on her like a bitch. But I couldn't get there. And she was married.

I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything.

Before a show, I’ll go backstage and everyone’s getting dressed, and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it. You know, I’m inspecting because I want to make sure that everything is good. You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.

And about his daughter...

Yeah, she’s really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father . . .

... with regards to her posing for playboy...

It would be really disappointing — not really — but it would depend on what’s inside the magazine. I don’t think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. I’ve said if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her.

This is what he has actually SAID. Of course, the several rape allegations along-side this can't be proven any more than the positive hearsay that you choose to believe. If all I go on is how this guy willingly presents himself to the public, he is a complete slimeball. Some of it is how he communicates non-verbally. Like a smarmy used-car-salesman.

[Maddy]

I don't see anything remotely "rapey" about any of that. In fact, it's exactly the kind of banter to which I was exposed on a daily basis while working in a field dominated by men.

[moda0306]

I have difficulty even understanding the characterization of Trump as "rapey," although this image appears to be almost obsessively dominating the thinking of the disgruntled Left.

The particular comment that has sent the Left into high worble has nothing to do with rape, nor does it convey a disrespectful attitude toward women generally. The comment related specifically to the hoards of gold-digging women--essentially high-priced hookers--who wouldn't think of getting an actual job but who would open their legs on a dime for a billionaire real estate mogul. Trump's attitude toward these women was, in my view, appropriately disrespectful. He knew what their game was.

Likewise, the women who threw themselves at Trump for a chance to claw their way to the top knew what the game was and believed that they possessed sufficient sexual power to win it. These women were not victims.

Trump, unlike the majority of his predecessors to the White House, actually has a reputation for treating women very well. Unlike many of his predecessors, he appears to actually like and respect competent, professional women.

If there was even one comment from Trump that suggested something non-consensual, I would rethink my position on this.

There seems to be a very high incidence of mental illness among the disgruntled Left.

As well as among a number of people who probably wouldn't describe themselves that way but who get all of their "news" from the "mainstream media".

There is no point in discussing anything with such people, other than for the edification of normal people who don't yet understand the raging epidemic of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I know I found it hard to believe at first myself.

Funny how this "derangement" also exists among many people who are not of "the left."

[Libertarian666]

By the way, moda306, I have added you to my ignore list.

But to show that I don't have any hard feelings, I will mention that you should get help for your anger problem. The level of rage you are displaying is bad for your health.

[stuper1]

Moda, you've used the word "authoritarian" several times to describe Trump. Could you tell us which of his actions you find as displaying authoritarianism? I ask this out of true curiosity, not as any type of "gotcha" question. I just want to know, because I don't really see that.

By the way, I totally agree with you on your characterization of him as a smarmy, used-car-salesman type of guy. No argument there at all.

[Kriegsspiel]

Moda, you've used the word "authoritarian" several times to describe Trump. Could you tell us which of his actions you find as displaying authoritarianism? I ask this out of true curiosity, not as any type of "gotcha" question. I just want to know, because I don't really see that.

By the way, I totally agree with you on your characterization of him as a smarmy, used-car-salesman type of guy. No argument there at all.

Saying that football team owners should fire their players for failing to "respect the flag", saying that Hillary Clinton should be locked up before she was convicted of a crime are two I can think of off the top of my head. Posturing type stuff. He shows a lot of alpha traits, which are the same color traits as authoritarianism.

On the other hand, I get the impression he's libertarian on other things... trade deals, energy, healthcare.

EDIT
I gave myself 10 mins to zip through his Executive Orders:

You could also say these were authoritarian:
Executive Order 13766
13767
13768
13769/13780
13774

Libertarian
13771
13772
13781
13783

Seems like a pretty even mix.

[Maddy]

Does anybody seriously think that Trump meant that Hillary should go to prison without first being tried and convicted of a crime? Please, give me a break!

I've uttered exactly those words on more than one occasion, and there's no greater believer in the constitutional justice system than I. We say these things because the uncontroverted evidence that has been presented to date is overwhelming and would most certainly have resulted in a prosecution against anyone but a Clinton or a Bush. That this comment would be offered as proof of Trump's "authoritarianism" is ridiculous.

And offering the opinion that NFL players should be fired for utilizing the spotlight to further their own political agenda--an agenda that is so reprehensible to a majority of Americans that it causes stadiums to go empty? If that's "authoritarian," then every employer I know suffers from the same personality trait. When somebody hires you to do a job, you don't shit on them. Seems simple enough.

You'll get no argument from me when it comes to Trump's character. But the sad fact is that none of the cast of characters among which the American people were allowed to choose--save Rand Paul and possibly one or two others who failed to win the nomination--had any character. At least Trump has ruffled the feathers of the establishment, has shone light upon many of the cockroaches that were hiding in the woodwork, and has galvanized the will of constitutional conservatives to return power to the people. In that sense, I regard Trump as a symbol more than anything else.

[Michellebell]

I think the media puts a bad taste in people's mouths about Trump, and for some people, it is impossible to get rid of it because they choose to see only the absolute worst they possibly can.

I say that because I used to think he was really horrible too. The few times I did hear him speak, I was interpreting his words in the most negative way possible because I was expecting it.

Really, if you assume someone is arrogant, evil, whatever, you see it. If he says, "Things are going much better in our economy," you interpret it as, "Look at how wonderful I am! Look at me!! Praise me!!!" and think he’s an arrogant POS. If someone legitimately wrongs him or spreads lies about him and he retaliates, you interpret it as him saying, "I am perfect and can do no wrong so how dare that person pretend that I made a mistake. I'm going to go after that person and attack and insult that person for no reason."

I seriously had a sort of "waking up" moment last summer where I saw some posts on Facebook that shared information about some things he's accomplished that really sort of blew my mind. Then I went ahead and watched the Presidential debates (yes, finally watched them last summer when I had time) and was like, wow, he's really not as bad as everyone has been saying. Hillary seemed to me very two-faced and the policies she was promoting seemed costly and ineffective.

So no I don’t think he’s so bad anymore. In fact I think he’s working very hard for us, plus with all that’s going on internationally and also within our country, he’s in a really tough position. The way he’s being treated actually reminds me of the way I was treated my first couple years as a teacher. I was crying all the time because half my students HATED me so much. I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood and we treated our teachers with respect. College (and life overall) didn’t train me to deal with the social aspects of trying to get inner-city middle school students to learn math, something many of them were years behind on and had already decided they couldn’t learn. Many of the students expected to get an A even if they failed every test because they “completed their work” (entirely wrong) during class. Since I was reluctant to curve their grades for math (you either get it correct or you don’t – it’s math!) they really hated me. One of them wrote me a letter saying she hopes I choke on acid and die. Those first few years were seriously so painful. I was working my butt off for those students to try to make the math make sense to them. I gave them all these opportunities to retake failed tests, retaught lessons as much as I possibly could, wrote all of my own lessons because the textbook was too hard, brought in hands-on materials, etc. But they would throw the materials at each other, they would curse at me, threaten me, and if I sent them to the principal’s office or call home, they’d just come right back with all their hate. I think the disrespect in our society is especially rampant right now in many areas like that, such as the disrespect toward teachers, police, and of course, the Presidency.

I still say I’m kind of on the fence regarding Trump though because I’ve noticed that some people are so supportive of him it’s like he can really do no wrong. I’m not willing to go so far to say that I’ll vote for him in 2020 for sure because a lot can happen between now and then and I am still wanting to see what happens. Some of the stuff he says makes me nervous, especially with other countries. He’s super bold. But I do have to say that I’m more and more turned off to the Democrats so at this point I’m definitely leaning more in his direction.

Talking to other people though has been so weird and definitely disheartening. The people I knew growing up that I thought were really nice are saying the most awful things. I assumed that if I shared some of the stuff I learned about him they’d be surprised too and consider the validity of what I said, but no, instead they have just assumed the worst about me.

Also, regarding the conversation Trump had about women, it wasn’t as bad as people are making it out to be. His way of seriously hitting on a woman is buying her furniture. That doesn’t sound anything remotely like sexual harassment or assault. I don’t like that he was hitting on a married woman so I’m glad he apologized for the whole thing. The “grabbing by the p*ssy” comment was just a joke. I doubt he’d make a joke like that in front of a woman but he didn’t know he was being recorded. I saw an interview of Melania talking about it and she was saying that he never acts that way around her and that he treats his female employees very fairly and professionally. She said that he can act immature and said she feels like she has two boys in her home (it was kind of cute how she said it, and I definitely see that – he’s the only president goofy enough to throw paper towels at crowds). She also said that women have acted extremely inappropriately around both of them, hitting on her husband right in front of her. Furthermore, she was mad that this tape was released weeks before the election when it occurred so many years previously. Anyway, I’ve said things before in private that I wouldn’t want recorded and broadcast to the world either.

So no, he doesn’t fit into “slimeball” category with me. I just care about if he will be able to make a dent in all the problems we have that our country desperately needs to be solved.

[stuper1]

The one that I love is when people say that with Trump as our president, we are now the laughingstock of the world. Maybe we are the laughingstock of wimpy, socialist Europe, although I'm not even sure of that, but really who cares? I actually doubt we are the laughingstock anymore in a lot of places. Sure, he's a smarmy buffoon in a lot of ways, but at least they see we have a president who is hopefully a little bit serious about putting America first, instead of putting the rest of the world first. I mean is that so crazy to expect the leader of our own county to actually put our own country first ahead of other countries? Isn't that what we should expect?

Obama was suave, urbane, and intelligent, but meanwhile he did nothing to stop the slow-motion invasion of our country by foreigners, which is basically what's been happening for quite a while. Talk about laughingstocks, but anyway at least he looked and sounded good to the intellectuals.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we can't take some immigrants. I'm just saying that we need to slow it down a bit, so that we can assimilate the immigrants that do come. The reason people come from Mexico to the USA is because they see it's better here. However, if we take too many immigrants too fast, then they don't assimilate and pretty soon the USA just becomes an extension of Mexico.

[stuper1]

Moda, you've used the word "authoritarian" several times to describe Trump. Could you tell us which of his actions you find as displaying authoritarianism? I ask this out of true curiosity, not as any type of "gotcha" question. I just want to know, because I don't really see that.

By the way, I totally agree with you on your characterization of him as a smarmy, used-car-salesman type of guy. No argument there at all.

Saying that football team owners should fire their players for failing to "respect the flag", saying that Hillary Clinton should be locked up before she was convicted of a crime are two I can think of off the top of my head. Posturing type stuff. He shows a lot of alpha traits, which are the same color traits as authoritarianism.

On the other hand, I get the impression he's libertarian on other things... trade deals, energy, healthcare.

EDIT
I gave myself 10 mins to zip through his Executive Orders:

You could also say these were authoritarian:
Executive Order 13766
13767
13768
13769/13780
13774

Libertarian
13771
13772
13781
13783

Seems like a pretty even mix.

I guess we have a different idea of what authoritarianism is. The only reason he talked about football players was to win votes from his conservative followers. In my view, authoritarians don't worry about winning votes. An authoritarian would just have all the football players arrested and shot for treason if they disrespected the flag.

For me, I couldn't care less. I don't watch football any longer, because it's too violent and I feel like a jerk getting my jollies out of watching grown men destroy their bodies. Plus, the whole national anthem thing before the games is too nauseatingly nationalistic for my taste. It's funny, because my personal attitude is that I am not nationalistic at all in terms of thinking that Americans are somehow better than people from other countries. Nevertheless, I don't want America to turn into Mexico or India, which is what will happen if we don't slow down our immigration rate. And I can understand why voters would want to vote for a president who is nationalistic. To me, that just makes sense. It seems like a president should be nationalistic. Isn't that supposed to be his job, to do what is best for his nation?

[Michellebell]

I think of nationalism and putting America first kind of like how we put our own children and families first. I like kids and think that people who adopt are very noble to do it, but you don't see any families feeding all their neighbors' kids ahead of their own.

[Maddy]

The whole Hollywood meltdown shows just how far they've gone with the attributions of "rape." I'll bet you dollars to donuts that when the dust clears, the vast majority of the allegations will boil down to "I didn't want to do it, but it was the only way I could further my career."

Of course, pedophilia is an entirely different ball of wax, but even then I'll wager that in the vast majority of cases there was a hard-driving parent in the background who turned a blind eye to the obvious.

[Libertarian666]

The whole Hollywood meltdown shows just how far they've gone with the attributions of "rape." I'll bet you dollars to donuts that when the dust clears, the vast majority of the allegations will boil down to "I didn't want to do it, but it was the only way I could further my career."

I suspect very strongly that you are correct. The good thing about this is that it is causing the left to turn on itself and expose its hypocrisy.

Of course, pedophilia is an entirely different ball of wax, but even then I'll wager that in the vast majority of cases there was a hard-driving parent in the background who turned a blind eye to the obvious.

You are probably right about that as well. Of course that doesn't excuse such behavior.

[Maddy]

My intent was to point out how absurd some of the complaints about Trump are. I wasn't expecting my comment to be taken seriously.

The comment was not difficult to recognize as pure satire. The exaggerated font was an essential part of the political commentary being offered--a commentary, incidentally, that this moderator has made abundantly clear is disagreeable to him.

If moderation on this forum has come to this, I won't be long here.

[stuper1]

My intent was to point out how absurd some of the complaints about Trump are. I wasn't expecting my comment to be taken seriously.

The comment was not difficult to recognize as pure satire. The exaggerated font was an essential part of the political commentary being offered--a commentary, incidentally, that this moderator has made abundantly clear is disagreeable to him.

If moderation on this forum has come to this, I won't be long here.

Agreed totally. Tip to moderator: be extra careful with your comments when moderating on topics that you may be biased about or have the perception of being biased about. Otherwise, you run the real risk of ending up with that echo chamber that you said you don't want.

[Kriegsspiel]

Does anybody seriously think that Trump meant that Hillary should go to prison without first being tried and convicted of a crime? Please, give me a break!

I've uttered exactly those words on more than one occasion, and there's no greater believer in the constitutional justice system than I. We say these things because the uncontroverted evidence that has been presented to date is overwhelming and would most certainly have resulted in a prosecution against anyone but a Clinton or a Bush. That this comment would be offered as proof of Trump's "authoritarianism" is ridiculous.

And offering the opinion that NFL players should be fired for utilizing the spotlight to further their own political agenda--an agenda that is so reprehensible to a majority of Americans that it causes stadiums to go empty? If that's "authoritarian," then every employer I know suffers from the same personality trait. When somebody hires you to do a job, you don't shit on them. Seems simple enough.

You'll get no argument from me when it comes to Trump's character. But the sad fact is that none of the cast of characters among which the American people were allowed to choose--save Rand Paul and possibly one or two others who failed to win the nomination--had any character. At least Trump has ruffled the feathers of the establishment, has shone light upon many of the cockroaches that were hiding in the woodwork, and has galvanized the will of constitutional conservatives to return power to the people. In that sense, I regard Trump as a symbol more than anything else.

Well, I wasn't making any comment about his character. I thought about an authoritarian-libertarian axis and two actions (statements, at any rate) that displayed towards the authoritarian side, since stuper1 asked. It seemed pretty obvious that these were authoritarian statements; nobody has said anything that would make me think they were libertarian yet. If they were "good" or "bad" is a different aspect.

I guess we have a different idea of what authoritarianism is.

Maybe, did you mean something more like 'tyrannical' instead of authoritarian?

[Michellebell]

Does anybody seriously think that Trump meant that Hillary should go to prison without first being tried and convicted of a crime? Please, give me a break!

I've uttered exactly those words on more than one occasion, and there's no greater believer in the constitutional justice system than I. We say these things because the uncontroverted evidence that has been presented to date is overwhelming and would most certainly have resulted in a prosecution against anyone but a Clinton or a Bush. That this comment would be offered as proof of Trump's "authoritarianism" is ridiculous.

And offering the opinion that NFL players should be fired for utilizing the spotlight to further their own political agenda--an agenda that is so reprehensible to a majority of Americans that it causes stadiums to go empty? If that's "authoritarian," then every employer I know suffers from the same personality trait. When somebody hires you to do a job, you don't shit on them. Seems simple enough.

You'll get no argument from me when it comes to Trump's character. But the sad fact is that none of the cast of characters among which the American people were allowed to choose--save Rand Paul and possibly one or two others who failed to win the nomination--had any character. At least Trump has ruffled the feathers of the establishment, has shone light upon many of the cockroaches that were hiding in the woodwork, and has galvanized the will of constitutional conservatives to return power to the people. In that sense, I regard Trump as a symbol more than anything else.

Well, I wasn't making any comment about his character. I thought about an authoritarian-libertarian axis and two actions (statements, at any rate) that displayed towards the authoritarian side, since stuper1 asked. It seemed pretty obvious that these were authoritarian statements; nobody has said anything that would make me think they were libertarian yet. If they were "good" or "bad" is a different aspect.

I guess we have a different idea of what authoritarianism is.

Maybe, did you mean something more like 'tyrannical' instead of authoritarian?

I always thought "authoritarian" referred to a "my-way-or-the-highway" style, often when referring to parenting styles. I think the word is appropriate for this conversation, but I don't think Trump was acting authoritarian in these situations. I think of these things as him just speaking his mind. And people who agree with him love it, whereas people who disagree hate it. In that sense, he does cause more division. But then again, anyone voicing strong opinions in public would cause division. I happen to agree with him on a lot of the things he says, like regarding the NFL.