A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

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Maddy
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A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Maddy » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:46 pm

I had the misfortune of having spent much of the day yesterday with a group of parents with young children. After three or four hours, I was about at my wit's end. Within that time frame, we had experienced seven or eight total meltdowns, not counting the fairly constant tenor of crying, whining, hitting and pinching, throwing, and breaking things. As a single person who has never had children, I was pretty horrified. I don't know whether I was more stunned by the childrens' behavior or by the almost academic-sounding excuses and explanations that were spewing forth from these mothers (e.g., "Little Junior is having trouble identifying what he's feeling.") Now, I'm a fairly inquisitive person with an intense interest in psychodynamics, but all I could think of, given this rather extreme spectacle, was that somebody should slap these feral little monsters into shape.

One of the few interesting things that came up amidst the mothers' endless prattling about the texture of their babies' poop, the latest bouncer, and how long their labor went on was the fact that most of the kids in the room had, quite by chance, been diagnosed with autism. According to these mothers, at least half of the children in their kids' school carry this label and are getting special services as a result. Knowing that this area of the country has more than its share of drugs, family dysfunction, and other generational stuff, I got to wondering about this whole phenomenon of so-called autism. If this diagnosis is real, and if its prevalence is anywhere near what these mothers led me to believe it is, you'd think it would be making headlines within the scientific community rather than simply generating a new layer of social workers.

I'm sure that if you follow the money there are plenty of professionals whose jobs depend, in one way or another, on the pathologizing of kids. And I know for a fact that our cash-strapped school system goes out of its way to channel kids into special needs programs because there's funding tied to every head. But after watching these kids for a while, it's clear that there is, in fact, something very wrong with them. The kids I witnessed yesterday had pretty much nothing in the way of self-control. They were oblivious, for the most part, to anything but their own immediate needs and wants. Many were lagging developmentally. Most of the babies and toddlers had a very obvious and well-developed repertoire of behaviors aimed at manipulating their parents and attempting to control everyone else in the room. Many of them acted like little sociopaths in the making. I could picture a couple of them setting fires in a couple of years.

So I'm wondering. . . What is behind this so-called epidemic of autism? If it's not autism, what is it that is causing such a large segment of today's kids to be so thoroughly messed up? Are these bona fide neurological issues or is this a case of plain old bad behavior?
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by WiseOne » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:27 pm

Maddy that's one way to get my attention! I'm at a conference and thus little chance to steal glances at the forum, but I couldn't resist...

Don't even get me started on the current fad of overdiagnosis. It is most definitely a thing. Not just autism but also ADHD and the new version of bipolar disorder. However I don't think that's your question exactly.

I guess first question is, was the behavior you observed typical for those kids, and are those kids representative of the kids in your area generally? Honestly, maybe you just don't remember what a group of kids on a field trip can be like.

I can assure you that the vast majority of kids in the U.S. do not have autism. A recent study indicated that the rate of autism hasn't changed since the 1950s (pre-vaccine era). The number of diagnoses has increased because of the overdiagnosis fad and also for the rather obvious reason of secondary gains from state benefits. However, this has nothing to do with the behavior you described, which doesn't sound particularly like autism to me. If it's really that abnormal and if it's so obviously a large proportion of local kids affected, maybe there is something weird going on. Like, a lot of genetic inbreeding in the community, or a high level of arsenic in the well water, heavy metal poisoning (e.g. lead, mercury) from industrial exposure, etc. Before coming to that conclusion I might suggest going for another look at these kids, to confirm that the behavior is persistent, and also to see if it's worsening over time.

If you confirm your original impression, then it might be a matter for public health investigation. At least, the most severely affected kids should be evaluated by a pediatric neurologist who will do more than slap them with an autism label. It might be hard for you to be the one to raise the alarm, but you could try to convince a few of the parents to do so.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by drumminj » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:49 pm

I don't want to derail the more...scientific and academic discussion on this subject, but would like to also hypothesize that simply bad/lazy parenting is possibly a factor here?

As an adult with no children/no desire to have them, I can't help but be acutely aware of how rarely these days parents control their kids in public. Running, screaming, climbing on furniture, taking the unruly lot into nice establishments with clearly no training on how not to be a total imposition on the world around them...

I'm sure my location (Seattle, in my experience a very "me"-focused area) is a factor, but I've experienced the same behavior across the country/elsewhere in the world.

I know there are "good" parents out there with well-behaved children, but perhaps the "pathologizing" gives lesser parents an excuse?
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Xan » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:58 pm

I think that's it, drumminj. The described behavior sounds exactly like what happens to perfectly normal children with no discipline applied.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Maddy » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:06 am

WiseOne wrote: I guess first question is, was the behavior you observed typical for those kids, and are those kids representative of the kids in your area generally? Honestly, maybe you just don't remember what a group of kids on a field trip can be like.
I'm pretty isolated up here on the mountain, but on those occasional trips to Walmart I do see a whole lot of the same kinds of behavior. But then I saw quite a bit of it when I lived in the city, as well.

As an aside, I once won the distinction of having been forcefully ejected from a Trader Joe's for spouting off at a two-year-old who was having a doozy of a meltdown. The stereotypically permissive mother was following with her cart not more than 10 feet behind me for over 20 minutes (kid melting down the whole time), and wouldn't you know, when I pulled into the checkstand, they pulled in right behind me. Well, my own nervous system isn't exactly stable under these circumstances, and I had pretty much reached the point of meltdown myself, so I whirled around and shouted "Be Quiet!" at the kid, who was visibly stunned by my outburst and, for the first time, stopped screaming. Now, you have to keep in mind that this was Trader Joe's, in a predominately progressive city to boot. Mom got a horrified look on her face, and another customer shreaked, "He's just a baby!" Well, I don't need to tell you where things went from there.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I do notice a very obvious distribution that closely tracks the parents' socioeconomic status. In this rural area, we have a very large bottom tier (generally the welfare/methamphetamine crowd) who, unfortunately, tend to be breeders. Their children are, for the most part, feral. They're the ones with two weeks worth of dirt on their feet and last week's mucus caked on their faces. Most of those kids reach the age of five without knowing their colors. Many are still grunting instead of talking.

But the behavior isn't limited to that lower stratum. I see a whole lot of the same thing coming from the kids of working class parents, too. In the latter case, there's often a great deal of parental interaction going on. Unfortunately, it's the kind of interaction where the kid is calling the shots and the parents pretty much act like slaves. Interestingly, this group utilizes medical services like I've never seen. The medical system here seems to encourage it.

We also have a very visible Mennonite presence in this area. These mothers come into the store followed by a gaggle of quiet, obedient children--the boys always in white button-down shirts and the girls in dresses and bonnets, and their behavior is impeccable.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:59 am

I’m getting a pattern here. :( And forming a cause and effect conclusion.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Maddy » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:40 pm

MangoMan wrote:Oh, yes. Inadequate parenting, not ADHD or autism. Feel free to ask my ex-wife or daughter, who are both elementary school teachers, why today's parents expect their teachers to raise their kids for them.
Please do tell.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Maddy » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:28 pm

Very interesting, Pugchief. Thank you.

There's a ring of truth to the idea that parents, particularly those who at some level know their parenting skills are deficient, will go to some length to construct an explanation for their kids' behavior that takes them off the hook. Perhaps the medical professionals who see these kids go along with the ruse as a way of avoiding completely alienating these people, whose kids obviously need help. I dunno.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by WiseOne » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:10 pm

A few things in Maddy's original post raised red flags for me - that many of the kids looked developmentally delayed. That wouldn't be due to parental permissiveness alone. However, the Mennonite story suggests it's nothing environmental - I thought of that because things like heavy metal poisoning are quite common and can be hard to recognize.

No problem with the default explanation of a cultural/parental cause. The medical involvement (via the autism label) is the school district's response to all the misbehaving kids, because they probably don't have to resources to deal with it properly. Not really their job to raise children, after all. I wonder if the language delay/grunting you're talking about is because the kids aren't being taught to speak English at home. Which in turn causes problems in schools when these non-English speaking kids turn up and there's no resources available to teach them English, or teach them in Spanish. So the kids fall behind/get ignored which probably triggers more behavioral problems. Could that be part of it?

I've definitely seen parentally-induced problems first hand. Someone I know didn't believe in establishing set bedtimes for her kids. One of them took full advantage of the license to stay up all night and then sleep during the day. So her parents decided she had a sleep disorder, and medicated her with melatonin daily for YEARS - this was around age 3 or 4, on up to her teens (she's now graduated to getting formal sleep studies and followup with a specialist). Even today she is completely unable to sleep on a schedule, and because of it is constantly missing school. Yet, whenever she came to visit me (or other people) on her own (sans parents), where a bedtime was enforced, she had no trouble getting on a normal sleep schedule. Go figure.

Not sure why this is a thing, or why it's not recognized as a problem.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by farjean2 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:48 pm

Maddy wrote:Very interesting, Pugchief. Thank you.

There's a ring of truth to the idea that parents, particularly those who at some level know their parenting skills are deficient, will go to some length to construct an explanation for their kids' behavior that takes them off the hook. Perhaps the medical professionals who see these kids go along with the ruse as a way of avoiding completely alienating these people, whose kids obviously need help. I dunno.
I saw this at work with my first wife (deceased) and my son. When he started doing poorly in school and getting into a lot of trouble she came up with the diagnosis of ADHD all by herself. I didn't go with them but when she took him to some kind of doctor she told me later how she described all of the symptoms to him and he just sat there and agreed that it was a classic case of ADHD. If my son had anything to say while all this was going on he never told me. He was prescribed Ritalin and quit taking it very shortly because he hated it. Said it made him fall asleep.

I think it probably makes parents like my wife feel a lot better if they can get a simple diagnosis for what ails their kid and the doctor says, here, take this pill. But life is a lot more complicated.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by bedraggled » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:03 am

After enthusiastic discussion here at home, we recommend the movie "Willy Wonka And The Chocolate Factory," our 2017 contribution to this forum. Gene Wilder starred in one of the best movies ever made. This movie is in my top 20.

The Oompa Lumpas and their running commentary are magnificent. Watching Mike TV, Veruka and Violet receive life lessons is wonderful. These 1970s kids were mild in their behavior compared to what Maddie posted here.

And the Oompa Lumpas blame "the mother and the father." Does anyone recall that a glut of TV results in an IQ of 3? Also, by reading a book, you get no commercials.

"So shines a good deed in a weary world." (I think that's it).

A glorious kids film that I first saw at age 38.

BTW, thanks, Maddy.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by stuper1 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:28 pm

I concur, an excellent movie, much better than I had ever expected. I haven't seen the modern remake, but the snippets I've seen don't entice me.

As is usually the case, the book is much better, and was one of my kid's favorites, along with several other books by Roald Dahl who lived a very interesting life, which included being a RAF pilot in WW2.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by bedraggled » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:26 pm

Stuper1,

"Amen." I did not and will not see the remake with J Depp. Gene Wilder lamented the idea of a remake. It's said the Depp version was more true to the book but.... Maybe in my retirement.

Everyone on this forum should see the Gene Wilder film- a delight!

We were talking about out of control parents and children, right?
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by bedraggled » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Holy Smokes, Stuper1, you are right about Dahl!!! Fabulous author!

Now, did everyone see "Matilda," a Danny Devito production with wife Rhea Perlman? Another fabulous movie about parents and the kids. Devito must love Dahl; Dan went out on a limb to make the movie. I am eternally grateful. (Did you see my use of the semi-colon? Rarely since grad school, people).

BTW, "Matilda" seems more a blast at parents, I think.

Our culture is rich, ain't it?

Moving on... how's our social fabric, getting back to Maddy's opening post?
Last edited by bedraggled on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:39 am

bedraggled wrote:Holy Smokes, Stuper1, you are right about Dahl!!! Fabulous author!

Now, did everyone see "Matilda," a Danny Devito production with wife Rhea Perlman? Another fabulous movie about parents and the kids. Devito must have loved Dahl; Dan went out on a limb to make the movie. I am eternally grateful. (Did you see my use of the semi-colon? Rarely since grad school, people).

Our culture is rich, ain't it?

Moving on... how's our social fabric, getting back to Maddy's opening post?
Our social fabric is pretty much like a fish net. However, the main objective is (was?) to catch water and not fish ...... We are drowning in rotting fish after we threw out the bucket.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Kbg » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:51 am

I agree with the several comments made about parenting and behavior...not so great these days. But I have another theory...the vast majority of the country really doesn't have serious problems...and as a result people get very self involved and problems that aren't really problems become problems. I seriously doubt children have changed much over time. What I think is distinctly different is that very little is demanded of children now days. That's not a growing up problem, that's an adults/parents problem. There was a time when children were basically expected to be little adults and fully contribute to the family's well being/income/etc. and they did...heck go back to the 1700s and if mom and dad didn't think you could pull your weight you may have gotten "apprenticed out."

I also think/believe that many parents forget that parenting isn't really about making your children feel constantly loved and safe (though both are certainly good things). The point of parenting is to prepare children to be successful adults and as adults we all know we don't get everything we want and people expect us to "perform" when it comes to jobs, behavior etc. Such things/realities should be in a good parent's "training plan" and not doing so is ultimately a disservice to your child.

My favorite buzzword is "resilience"...it pretty much encapsulates today's world.
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:55 pm

Kbg wrote:I agree with the several comments made about parenting and behavior...not so great these days. But I have another theory...the vast majority of the country really doesn't have serious problems...and as a result people get very self involved and problems that aren't really problems become problems. I seriously doubt children have changed much over time. What I think is distinctly different is that very little is demanded of children now days. That's not a growing up problem, that's an adults/parents problem. There was a time when children were basically expected to be little adults and fully contribute to the family's well being/income/etc. and they did...heck go back to the 1700s and if mom and dad didn't think you could pull your weight you may have gotten "apprenticed out."

I also think/believe that many parents forget that parenting isn't really about making your children feel constantly loved and safe (though both are certainly good things). The point of parenting is to prepare children to be successful adults and as adults we all know we don't get everything we want and people expect us to "perform" when it comes to jobs, behavior etc. Such things/realities should be in a good parent's "training plan" and not doing so is ultimately a disservice to your child.

My favorite buzzword is "resilience"...it pretty much encapsulates today's world.
Maybe children today have realized how useless they are, and they are lashing out? Somehow, possibly through state educational institutions, they've learned that in the glory days, they were able to use their tiny, dexterous fingers to manipulate industrial machinery, shimmy their narrow bodies through chimneys, or pull weeds on the farm. Now deprived of any conceivable use, they lash out in fury against their parents for creating them?
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Kbg » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:00 pm

Yep, exactly. :o
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Re: A Question for Sophie (An Epidemic of Autism or Plain Old Bad Behavior?)

Post by Lonestar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:26 am

Maddy wrote:
WiseOne wrote: As an aside, I once won the distinction of having been forcefully ejected from a Trader Joe's for spouting off at a two-year-old who was having a doozy of a meltdown.
Maddy,

Since I live in a smaller town, I have to rely on Walmart for my "test bed" of societal activity. I can't tell you how many times I've experienced that same mother and screaming two year old following me around the entire store. I can never understand why they choose me to torment, but I only wish I had the guts to have said the same thing you did.............. but they probably would have arrested me.

Your example of the Mennonite Family, a scene that I've experienced as well, suggests that maybe a well structured family environment with good parental role models might well be the solution. I can't help but agree with the above comments that many young mothers, lacking parental skills, are constantly searching for a medical diagnosis to explain the child's bad behavior. And, as a bonus, if that diagnosis can be treated with a pharmaceutical product, even the better.

I've got to admire the kids for being able to parlay these disorders into a way to manipulate the parent(s). As they age, they become quite skilled at it.
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