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Mountaineer
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Re: Durham

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:32 am

MangoMan wrote:
TennPaGa wrote:Police did nothing, arrested no one. What an appalling scene — even if you think that Confederate statues should come down. Why was it appalling? Because this is how the rule of law ends: in the violent frenzy of mob action.

This is the ultimate end of identity politics of all kinds. You cannot reason with it. It grounds Truth in identity — in race, in ethnicity, in religion, in sex, and so forth. Its lethal alchemy turns people into arguments, or rather, assertions masquerading as arguments. You cannot argue with an identity politics zealot, because to deny their assertion is to deny their personhood. In turn, you aren’t simply wrong when you disagree with those zealots; you are a threat to their existence. Having depersonalized you, they owe you no respect. The higher cause of asserting and affirming their identity excuses everything.

Again: this is how the rule of law ends, and law is replaced by will to power. An angry mob, no matter what it stands for, is always the enemy of the truth.
I agree with Dreher [and TPG]. What I don't understand is why the police allow this to happen in the first place, and not arrest the perps in the second place. Disgusting. And disappointing.
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Re: Durham

Post by moda0306 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:45 am

This kind of stuff used to really bug me...

Not anymore, really. The "rule of law" is a sham. At least insofar as it was ever really a hard principle. It's a system of selectively enforced rules based on power, position, culture, etc. A statue of an agent of the state on state property can fall as far as I'm concerned. I'd prefer more systematic means, what are we actually talking about here? A state's statue to honor itself?

"Mob" thinking is hardly my favorite mode of thinking, but neither is the careerism/institutional-inertia-laden world of political/corporate/institutional power (which is essentially mob thinking with suits and commutes). When the top political brass and fraudsters in banking/regulation/industry start going to jail for their crimes, then maybe I'll start to worry about decentralized mob movements where people actually have their skin in the game, as opposed to finding ways to avoid or even profit from the damage they cause.

To me, we need more protests... not less. I'd prefer them to be the type where as little property damage is done as possible, but either way we are part of a mob doing illegal/immoral things. You're either part of a mob that is silent and quasi-complicit in the murder, theft, and fraud by the elite (who pollute and steal and kill), or you're part of the mob who puts yourself out there to cause civil disobedience. Perhaps one is better than the other, but it is by no means clear to me at this point.

Protest, on an individualist basis, doesn't really do much. But neither does voting or debating on internet forums about how great the rule of law is. It's another form of principled action. Does it sometimes break into the illegal? Sure. I went 33 in a 30 yesterday. The world didn't end. We're committing felonies every day without realizing it and without being punished, unless an agent of the state finds a convenient reason to selectively enforce one of their so-called laws. We will live if some freeways get blocked and some statues fall.

Sorry if I seem trollish and negative. I'm really neither. Just a lot more jaded than I ever was towards establishment power.
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Re: Durham

Post by moda0306 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:57 am

To hopefully clarify where I'm coming from, take Richard Nixon, the Watergate scandal, and Vietnam/COINTELPRO/FBI.

Richard Nixon lies (just like his predecessor) about the nature of the Vietnam War, and kills hundreds of thousands if not millions of Laotians/Cambodians/Vietnamese. Easily a war criminal along with his cabal.

Who was calling for prosecution? Almost nobody. What did he resign over? Spying on one of two major political parties and the cover-up afterwards. What ended up happening to him? Pardoned... which brings me to Cointelpro.

COINTELPRO was an FBI program of spying on "radical" political groups, and their activities were significantly more extreme/illegal than those within Watergate. But who was the victim? Radical groups... not a major political party rife with establishment power.

So we have three illegal activities... 1) Killing millions and lying about it, 2) spying on a huge American power center and trying to cover it up, or 3) far more serious spying and illegal infiltration/manipulation of more fringe political groups.

Only one ended his presidency, but he never saw a day in jail.



The rule of law is a sham. Let the statues honoring the elites that perpetuated it fall.
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:09 am

Modern protests scare the shit out of me. The one featured in this thread is a good example. Reminds me of China's cultural revolution.
{How did I get an email alert about this thread when I wasn't subscribed to it?}

ADDED: More general, but on topic:
The WSJ had an Editorial Board piece a month ago called 'An A for Activism'.
But far from punishing students for such behavior, interim Evergreen provost Kenneth Tabbutt wrote in a May 25 email that “student protestors have diverted time and energy from their academic work to promote institutional change and social justice.” Professors have discretion on student evaluations, he added, so “I am asking that you consider the physical and emotional commitment the students have made and consider accommodations for that effort, including the learning that is going on outside of your program.” This is a novel spin on the old school of hard knocks.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-a-for-a ... 1500070766

:-\ What in the world?!
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:09 pm

moda0306 wrote:This kind of stuff used to really bug me...

Not anymore, really. The "rule of law" is a sham. At least insofar as it was ever really a hard principle...
"Mob" thinking is hardly my favorite mode of thinking, but neither is the careerism/institutional-inertia-laden world of political/corporate/institutional power (which is essentially mob thinking with suits and commutes)
Two apt cliches or maxims come to mind here:
1) Best horse in the glue factory
2) Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater

One could argue that lawyers have too much power in the States and that it is very difficult to change things in a way that doesn't favor lawyers...because they're lawyers. And they're in control. Of course we can't just get rid of our legal system (not that you suggested that, even though you called it a sham).
Sorry if I seem trollish and negative.
I don't think you sound trollish, just frustrated. But I have the same question as pug:

So we have more protests, more unrestrained violence, and then what?
Where does it end? At what point should we or can we rein them in? Can people just start dismantling artwork, too, if they take offense to it? Destroy paintings in museums, including old ones? Book burnings?
(moda) I'd prefer them to be the type where as little property damage is done as possible,
Good luck with that. O0
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Re: Durham

Post by Maddy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:27 pm

[Pressed "Submit" by mistake]
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Re: Durham

Post by Benko » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:51 pm

I haven't been following closely, but isn't the problem in a lot of these incidents that the cops just stand down and allow the violence to happen? e.g. leftist violence on college campuses assoc with attempts of conservatives to give speeches. Not clear what happened with cops in most recent violence.
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Re: Durham

Post by blue_ruin17 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:09 pm

Image

/my opinion on the subject of erasing history

Guess that makes me a Nazi, though, so I better be careful and keep my thoughts to myself.

Thomas Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves, so don't forget to smash those statues too, folks.
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Re: Durham

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:36 am

The idea that TRUE history (as opposed to the PC-only state-approved stuff) is at all usefully represented in state/national monuments to themselves is sort of oxymoronic. Our "civic religion" is fun and all. I am a Teddy Roosevelt guy, myself, if I can put my statist/Imperialist/militarist/racist/patriot hat on for a bit. But it's not our "true history." George Orwell would probably laugh at the idea that mobs ripping down tributes to agents of the state (especially when many are generals or imperialists) on state property as being "Orwelllian destroying of REAL history."

I actually kind of like monuments. But I'm bored with them. I find much more historical insight to be found in short books like "War is a Racket" than all of the self-congratulatory Washington DC monuments I saw on my last trip there put together.

Watching conservative baby-boomers lecture Millennial quasi-SJW's on "real history" is getting almost as entertaining as it is disappointing. They must have comfy chairs in these echo-chambers.
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Re: Durham

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:08 am

moda0306 wrote: The "rule of law" is a sham. At least insofar as it was ever really a hard principle. It's a system of selectively enforced rules based on power, position, culture, etc.


The "rule of law" is an abstraction representing a principled, even-handed manner of dispensing justice. When it fails to be revered as an ideal, you get exactly what we are seeing here: The most base, narcissistic, and destructive of human impulses prevail.

Individual laws, which necessarily have disparate impact on various groups and with which some members of society will always disagree, are the best tools we have for achieving that ideal. The fact that individual laws are imperfect, or that the system for dispensing justice sometimes falls short, is a very poor reason for regarding the rule of law itself as a "sham." For the rule of law to work (and that is always a relative concept--meaning that the best we can hope for is that it works most of the time), it requires that individual members of society have the maturity to recognize that getting along in a heterogeneous society requires some compromise, and to "suck it up" when things aren't going exactly their way.
"Mob" thinking is hardly my favorite mode of thinking, but neither is the careerism/institutional-inertia-laden world of political/corporate/institutional power (which is essentially mob thinking with suits and commutes). When the top political brass and fraudsters in banking/regulation/industry start going to jail for their crimes, then maybe I'll start to worry about decentralized mob movements where people actually have their skin in the game, as opposed to finding ways to avoid or even profit from the damage they cause.
Why is the Progressive Left so obsessed with the 0.1 percent? It's a no-brainer that the political/military/corporate complex is a hotbed of criminals that should start going to jail for their crimes. (Arguably, it's the conservatives who have been more consistent on this point than the progressive left, given the virtual pass that progressives have given to the Government Elite while illegally pursuing the leftist agenda). Those types will always be there. They'll always have a boot on your neck. You think throwing bottles of concrete and feces is going to change that?

Interestingly, however, progressives seem less bothered by the criminal behavior of the Elite than by the everyday disparities in power and wealth by which they are purportedly oppressed (the "suits and commutes"). At the core, they seem obsessed by the fact that somebody else has more than they do.

So what if the 0.1 percent has more than you and I do? Does that keep you from pursuing a happy and prosperous life, or from exercising the freedom to choose, to a very significant degree, the course of your life? Ironically, many so-called progressives are literally incapacitated by their envy and resentment and, for that reason, fail, by their own choices, to avail themselves of the very thing they claim to be deprived of.
To me, we need more protests... not less. I'd prefer them to be the type where as little property damage is done as possible. . .
Whose property, exactly, would you allow to be sacrificed to the cause? Considering your statement that protest is as "principled" a mode of resistance as any other, what possible principle justifies destroying what another person has spent a lifetime building for the purpose of creating drama-filled spectacle? (You'll notice that it wasn't George Soros' or Jeff Bezos' mansions that were being vandalized, so there is reason to doubt even the genuineness of their cause.) What about the innocent bystander (or peaceful protester) who is blinded by having acid tossed in their eyes? Since you consider the rule of law a "sham," what alternative mechanism do you offer for striking a balance between the protestor who wishes to express his rage through a cataclysmic showdown and the rights of the innocent individual whose face no longer exists?
[E]ither way we are part of a mob doing illegal/immoral things. You're either part of a mob that is silent and quasi-complicit in the murder, theft, and fraud by the elite (who pollute and steal and kill), or you're part of the mob who puts yourself out there to cause civil disobedience.
No room for any diversity of approach here. This is the kind of dichotomous thinking that creates very scary movements.

Harry Harry Browne's book, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" speaks to this issue in spades. He talks about the various self-induced "traps" in our patterns of thinking which serve to constrain our freedom. Among those is the belief that other people think (or should think) like we do, and the expectation that others will behave in a manner consistent with our values. Essentially, the book is a prescription for happy living, and its main point is that you can spend your limited time on earth butting your head up against the wall (which is unlikely to bring about any significant change), or you can find ways of working around the obstacles that other people and institutions put up for you--in which case you are likely to find a significant amount of freedom to live just about any way you want to live. IMHO, the protesters in Charlottsville and Durham could learn much from this book. They're angry and miserable, in large part, because of their own choices.
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:11 am

moda0306 wrote:I actually kind of like monuments. But I'm bored with them.
Ok, now you sound trollish. Or if you're serious, perhaps something worse.
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Re: Durham

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:06 am

dualstow wrote:
moda0306 wrote:I actually kind of like monuments. But I'm bored with them.
Ok, now you sound trollish. Or if you're serious, perhaps something worse.
What do you mean?

I just find monuments to be a very, very poor form of learning about "real history." They're always laden with quotes and accomplishments. Very seldom the costs and dark side of the history of the person/event involved.

Maybe you would understand my point more if I were to refer you to a monument to Mao or someone similar. Might be sort of cool to visit... but I know I'm going to take everything with a grain of salt.

I'm not advocating we rip them all down. I find many of them pleasing to look at. I guess I don't know how I'm coming off trollish with that comment, or especially "something worse."



Maddy, I'll have to get to your points later... tonight hopefully.
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:14 am

I mean statues aren't supposed to take the place of books, long or short.
Very seldom the costs and dark side of the history of the person/event involved.
There are, as you know, a growing number of museums dedicated to remembering massacres and tragedies, but how much do you really want crammed in to the base of a statue? Here's a statue of Jefferson. Oh, we better put in the fine print that he did own slaves.
Is that really where we're going with this? Should statues of Genghis Khan have some writing to appease visitors from other countries? Ridiculous.
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Re: Durham

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:27 am

dualstow wrote:I mean statues aren't supposed to take the place of books, long or short.
Very seldom the costs and dark side of the history of the person/event involved.
There are, as you know, a growing number of museums dedicated to remembering massacres and tragedies, but how much do you really want crammed in to the base of a statue? Here's a statue of Jefferson. Oh, we better put in the fine print that he did own slaves.
Is that really where we're going with this? Should statues of Genghis Khan have some writing to appease visitors from other countries? Ridiculous.
Absolutely we shouldn't expect monuments to be something they're not. But I'm not the one making the argument that removing statues is the Orwellian equivalent of erasing history from books. Others are.
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:33 am

I see what you mean. The quote may not be appropriate here, like you say. Removing a statue is not the same as renaming it.
By the same token, though, saying "I'm bored with statues and I prefer books" seems odd.
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Re: Durham

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:43 am

dualstow wrote:I see what you mean. The quote may not be appropriate here, like you say. Removing a statue is not the same as renaming it.
By the same token, though, saying "I'm bored with statues and I prefer books" seems odd.
There's plenty of renaming going on too: streets, schools, parks. All part of the same push.
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:45 am

Xan wrote:
dualstow wrote:I see what you mean. The quote may not be appropriate here, like you say. Removing a statue is not the same as renaming it.
By the same token, though, saying "I'm bored with statues and I prefer books" seems odd.
There's plenty of renaming going on too: streets, schools, parks. All part of the same push.
How do you feel about it?
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Re: Durham

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:05 am

dualstow wrote:
Xan wrote:There's plenty of renaming going on too: streets, schools, parks. All part of the same push.
How do you feel about it?
Sad. Powerless. But then there are heroes like this:
Predominantly Black Dallas Group Forms To Protect Confederate Monuments
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Re: Durham

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:15 am

I love it! I have seen African Americans speak in support of the confederate flag. Don't know if they're the same group.
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Re: Durham

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:35 pm

This is the kind of thing that is happening:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/ ... ve-owners/

I don't know if it is wrong or right. Going to be pretty hard to find any popular public figure that doesn't have at least one skeleton in their closet. Maybe we restrict future naming to animals and plants.

See the last sentence below. I guess cheating on your wife (and having a child with the mistress), and potentially abusing children and drugs is not bad enough to get you off the naming list...

Someone said it,.. no matter what, you'll piss some group off either way.
-----------------------------------

Dukes said, even though Washington was the nation’s first president and led the American army in the Revolutionary War, he’s no hero to the black community.

“There’s no way plausible that we would even think that they would erect a Malcolm X statue in Mount Greenwood, Lincoln Park, or any of that. Not that say Malcolm X was a bad guy; they just would not go for it,” he said. “Native Americans would not even think about putting up a Custer statue, because of the atrocities that he plagued upon Native Americans. And for them to say to us ‘just accept it’ is actually insulting.”

The pastor also said President Andrew Jackson’s name should be removed from nearby Jackson Park, because he also was a slave owner. He said he’s not necessarily asking the city rename the parks altogether. He suggested Washington Park could be named after former Mayor Harold Washington, and Jackson Park could be named after civil rights leader Rev. Jesse Jackson or singer Michael Jackson.
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