Charlottesville

[Maddy]

No, it is totally different. There is no attempt to bury history here. There is a fundamental difference between eliminating statues that glorify the Confederacy, and eliminating history. We have holocaust museums, but we don't have statues of Hitler. We can retain books, museum exhibits, etc. We don't need to publicly glorify the defenders of slavery.

But it's not just about the statues, Desert. It never is. As we speak, there are school districts around the country that have removed from their libraries copies of certain classic pieces of literature that do nothing more than portray the dominant values of an era deemed politically troubling. There is quite clearly a movement afoot to rewrite history and to remove from public consciousness certain inconvenient truths. The statues are just this week's target.

[ochotona]

I'm all for erecting plaques on every Confederate "hero" statue listing the name, gender, and year of birth of every shackled, enslaved human possessed by their household. Please no one start about how the life of slaves wasn't that bad, etc.

[Maddy]

I don't know what "classic books" you're referring to. Please list the titles. . .

Is this proof enough?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... harper-lee
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... 31a5a72c1c

[dualstow]

That is troubling.

I don't know what "classic books" you're referring to. Please list the titles. . .

Is this proof enough?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... harper-lee
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... 31a5a72c1c

[dualstow]

If the past is any guide, banned titles become the cool things to read.
Even so, I don't like it.

[Maddy]

Oh gosh, what will school kids do without those classics. I think the poor little kiddos will survive without learning the "N-lover" language in print. That will have to be taught at home now.

Seriously: are you really losing sleep over young children not reading this stuff?

What's worth losing sleep over is the loss of their freedom to read them. Which has a lot to do with their freedom to think for themselves and to come to their own conclusions about the lessons of history.

[Maddy]

If the past is any guide, banned titles become the cool things to read.
Even so, I don't like it.

The kids can read it whenever they want. There's a difference between freedom and indoctrination. Just because a book ceases to be required reading doesn't mean it's unavailable. Go to Amazon or the library. I think we'll still be able to find the N word when we need to.

Not really, because Amazon is pulling titles. Just earlier this year, virtually all items with confederate themes were delisted.

I could go on, but that's not really the point. Once you've decided that it's all right to make it difficult, or even inconvenient, for people to discover certain truths, you've begun down a very dangerous and slippery slope.

[Maddy]

Next time, the roles will be reversed, and different people will be upset for different reasons . . .

You'd think that certain folks would have learned that lesson, considering the vast number of civil liberties that were trampled over the last decade based upon the utmost conviction that the political winds could never change.

[Maddy]

I am very confident that you'll be able to find Robert E. Lee images and racist language whenever you need it. I will bet you a whole shit ton of money on that. Place your bet. This is just right-wing fear mongering. Left wingers are just as good at it, but on this forum, we only hear from the right. So what do you think ... when will the slippery slope prevent my 10 year old son from reading racist language? What year?

Most people would regard "To Kill a Mockingbird," "Huckleberry Finn" and "The Diary of Ann Frank" as having a good deal more literary and historical significance than your statement would imply. Those books were not put on library shelves because they served a pornographic-like craving for racist images and language.

[Maddy]

Well, this seems like a reasonable place to sign off. It's well past my bedtime. Thanks for the discussion--I always enjoy it.

[Mountaineer]

The kids can read it whenever they want. There's a difference between freedom and indoctrination. Just because a book ceases to be required reading doesn't mean it's unavailable. Go to Amazon or the library. I think we'll still be able to find the N word when we need to.

Not really, because Amazon is pulling titles. Just earlier this year, virtually all items with confederate themes were delisted.

I could go on, but that's not really the point. Once you've decided that it's all right to make it difficult, or even inconvenient, for people to discover certain truths, you've begun down a very dangerous and slippery slope.

yeah, like trying to read a Bible in school?

Seriously though, I don't buy the slippery slope argument here. I am very confident that you'll be able to find Robert E. Lee images and racist language whenever you need it. I will bet you a whole shit ton of money on that. Place your bet. This is just right-wing fear mongering. Left wingers are just as good at it, but on this forum, we only hear from the right. So what do you think ... when will the slippery slope prevent my 10 year old son from reading racist language? What year?

Probably can't read the Bible in public schools because it contains the word "slave", 181 times in the NIV. Will the Bible be next on the remove from classics list because it contains nasty stories? Surely we would not want our little darlings exposed to such hideous ideas; we must create more snowflakes to offset global warming.

On a serious note, I do not think one can fully understand and appreciate good unless they also understand evil. And, evil will never be eliminated by man, no matter how hard some try to create heaven on earth by getting rid of things they perceive as evil (e.g. statues, or books, or flags in this case). Much better to spend our energy focused on the real solution to the problem, i.e. what has already been done to solve the problem versus what we humans need to do.

[Mountaineer]

Here are a a couple of articles about the type of people who attend protest gatherings, and why (perhaps Trump on rare occasions?) does not rise to the bait as often as many would like. Many conservatives continue to be duped by rabble rousers (on either side) who have an agenda of their own:

This video captures in one little example the broad experience of conservatives who try to "come together" with progressives to express horror at hatred and violence and mourn the victims of it. It quickly becomes clear that the progressives are there to express horror at conservatism generally, meaning that unrepentant conservatives are not welcome.
http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/08/st ... g-yaf-cap/

If you’re not familiar with the “Peanuts” football gag, well, shame on you, you culturally illiterate buffoon. But, as a gesture of goodwill, let me describe it for you: Lucy van Pelt grabs a football and urges Charlie Brown to kick it. Charlie Brown desperately wants to kick the football, so despite his reservations over Lucy’s intentions, he sprints towards the ball and swings his leg in the air. But, just as she’s done every time, Lucy yanks the ball away at the last second and Charlie Brown falls flat on his back. Just as he suspected, she didn’t actually want him to kick the football. She just wanted to use the football as a ruse to humiliate him.
http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/16/pea ... supremacy/

[farjean2]

yeah, like trying to read a Bible in school?

Probably can't read the Bible in public schools because it contains the word "slave", 181 times in the NIV. Will the Bible be next on the remove from classics list because it contains nasty stories? Surely we would not want our little darlings exposed to such hideous ideas; we must create more snowflakes to offset global warming.

I would be very much in favor of teaching the Bible in public schools as long as it could be done without religious proselytizing or watering down what it actually says. I'd say to use the KJV but it probably wouldn't pass obscenity codes (like David going into a village to kill everyone that pisses against the wall).

Christians probably ought not to be in favor of this however, because I believe the more people know about what the "Good Book" actually says, the more likely they are to reject it. You really need to hide it from the kids until they are older and you can get them indoctrinated with religious teachings before they take a serious look at it (if they ever do - which most don't).

(Correction: In the KJV it says "pisseth", not "pisses". I think modern translations simply say "men" but the Bible is much more colorful when you translate it literally.)

[Maddy]

Just for the record, the above wasn't my quote.

[Mountaineer]

Just for the record, the above wasn't my quote.

The misattribution happens easily when quoters do not give the full quote - In my opinion, it is better to quote a whole post, including all the sub posts even if it gets messy, so all can see the correct context; otherwise all sorts of mischief can happen and who know what all those bots who are cruising our forum do with that incorrect information. However, I'm guilty of not following my own guidance sometimes.

[dualstow]

In my opinion, it is better to quote a whole post, including all the sub posts even if it gets messy,

I can't stand that quote bloat myself. I understand why people do it if they're on a phone. In fact, right now I'm on an iPad, with no forward arrow and shitty selection capabilities. I spend a lot of time deleting extraneous stuff and moving the stubborn cursor. Can't make anyone else do it, but for me it's worth it.

And how hard is it to type:

Code: Select all

[quote="Mountaineer"]

??

I have my ipad set to expand qt to the close quote tag.

[Mountaineer]

In my opinion, it is better to quote a whole post, including all the sub posts even if it gets messy,

I can't stand that quote bloat myself. I understand why people do it if they're on a phone. In fact, right now I'm on an iPad, with no forward arrow and shitty selection capabilities. I spend a lot of time deleting extraneous stuff and moving the stubborn cursor. Can't make anyone else do it, but for me it's worth it.

And how hard is it to type:

Code: Select all

[quote="Mountaineer"]

??

I have my ipad set to expand qt to the close quote tag.

But the context (sorry Maddy) is going, going, gone.

[Mountaineer]

Probably can't read the Bible in public schools because it contains the word "slave", 181 times in the NIV. Will the Bible be next on the remove from classics list because it contains nasty stories? Surely we would not want our little darlings exposed to such hideous ideas; we must create more snowflakes to offset global warming.

On a serious note, I do not think one can fully understand and appreciate good unless they also understand evil. And, evil will never be eliminated by man, no matter how hard some try to create heaven on earth by getting rid of things they perceive as evil (e.g. statues, or books, or flags in this case). Much better to spend our energy focused on the real solution to the problem, i.e. what has already been done to solve the problem versus what we humans need to do.

Point 1: I agree with portions of this, Mountaineer. And I certainly don't believe any of us can create heaven on earth. But I do believe we are called to oppose evil and do good; not for salvation, but because it's commanded and exemplified in the Bible. (Apologies to the non-religious for the bible thumping)

Point 2: Anyway, back to the secular world: I think it's tough to see more than one side of issues like this unless one gets out of their cultural bubble long enough to form relationships with individuals from other walks of life. Of course there's no law that says any of us need to do that, but I have found it incredibly useful in my own life. It has built empathy in my heart/brain for peoples and issues I previously saw very differently.

Point 3: And again, I wish everyone would take some time out and view the NO Mayor speech on monuments. You may not agree with his conclusion, but at the very least it will help you understand the other side of this issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/na ... 1bd7519e6a

I added Points in your post to help keep track of my responses.

Re. Point 1 - The main thing Jesus commanded is covered in Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” - Many of the rest of his commands were to show the futility of man being able to do them, and thus to help them see they needed to depend on Jesus alone. [notice it says teaching them to observe, not teaching them to do]

Re. Point 2 - Agree, my experience as well.

Re. Point 3 - I did watch the NO video. There is actually a biblical chain reference on this topic. (Deut 19:14, 27:17, Hos 5:10, Prov 22:28, 23:10, Job 24:2) The short answer is "you shall not move your neighbor's landmark". It is not quite that easy, as I think the context is incredibly helpful and critical. And the law always has three forces, but no force in itself. But, here is something a wrote up on it. http://www.saintmarkslutheran.org/2017/08/17/landmarks/ (Mark Brown). The cancer is spreading to statues of others who some merely "don't like". That's the problem when laws are not respected, as well as the problem when people do not respect the property of others. One of my current beliefs is that our culture has pretty much lost respect for most things that enabled our nation to prosper and grow, but especially the capability to care for each other no matter how obnoxious we may view the other. We used to be united in Christ, or at least in the moral aspects of the Judeo-Christian teachings - no longer. And we are reaping the results.

http://www.fox29.com/news/274535688-story

PHILADELPHIA (WTXF) - The Frank Rizzo statue was defaced with white spray paint that says "Black Power" Thursday night, and Philadelphia Police have now confirmed a suspect was taken into custody early Friday morning. It happened around 11 p.m. Thursday night. Rizzo, the tough talking former cop from South Philly, has long been criticized for his volatile relationships with African Americans and LGBT communities.

[farjean2]

Just for the record, the above wasn't my quote.

My apologies for the quote bloat. I'll try to avoid it in the future. My thinking was to include everybody who had commented on the thread but I'm sorry for the misattribution.

[l82start]

moved the Figuring Out Religion content to the appropriate thread... religious commentary/proselytizing is fine in the correct spot.. it is not complicated to use quote, copy, and paste to respond to political philosophical and investment discussions with a religion based reply in the correct thread, just hit quote copy the quote go to the religion thread paste the quote and reply away....


edit to add - feel free to post a link in the original thread to the religious replies you make over in the religion thread, to direct those who want to see it over there to read it..

[Mountaineer]

The more I think about the taking down of statues (or flags, or banning books and the like) the more I'm coming to believe we are treating the disease with an asprin when open heart 5 bypasses surgery is needed. So very like us humans to feel great about ourselves for the fleeting moment before reality kicks us in the teeth once more like it almost always does. Hope I'm wrong about that ......... I'm off now for a beer and brisket with farjean2 and desert, at least in my mind.

[farjean2]

I'm off now for a beer and brisket with farjean2 and desert, at least in my mind.

I'm flattered. Slow cooked ribs in the oven will be done in about an hour. There's also plenty of beer.

[Mountaineer]

I'm off now for a beer and brisket with farjean2 and desert, at least in my mind.

I'm flattered. Slow cooked ribs in the oven will be done in about an hour. There's also plenty of beer.

Wow, does that ever sound good. I'll bet we will find a whole bunch of things we agree on, likely far more than not. Let's see, how many is that now, at least 4 by my count and we are only trading electrons instead of real conversation.

[Mountaineer]

The more I think about the taking down of statues (or flags, or banning books and the like) the more I'm coming to believe we are treating the disease with an asprin when open heart 5 bypasses surgery is needed. So very like us humans to feel great about ourselves for the fleeting moment before reality kicks us in the teeth once more like it almost always does. Hope I'm wrong about that ......... I'm off now for a beer and brisket with farjean2 and desert, at least in my mind.

I agree. Taking down some statues and flags is only treating the symptoms. Here's a good read on the civil war, the Jim Crow period, and statues.

Confederate statues are generally not very aesthetically memorable. They are far more important for what they represent: a bill still being paid for over a century of deliberate forgetting and rewriting of the history of the Civil War and Reconstruction.

Let me start with one important fact: The American Civil War was fought over slavery. Southern states seceded (and later started the war) in furious outrage over Abraham Lincoln being elected on a platform of restricting slavery's extent to the places in which it already existed. Rather than accept the result of the democratic process, secessionists decided to break the country apart and start a war to keep it that way. Preserving and extending slavery — which was the sole foundation of the Confederacy's political economy — was the objective of this war.

http://theweek.com/articles/718986/how- ... -civil-war

I have no idea if this is really true, but I was once told by a history teacher that if one really wanted to understand the American Civil War, the most reliable but still far from perfect way to do that was to read newspapers from the North and South written at the time and no later than about 1870 or 1880. Read all the newspaper, opinions, articles, ads and such - everything for a maybe 30 or 40 year period. A very big task to say the least. After that, the rewriting of history began in ernest, especially the summary stuff that tries to reduce the complexity to a few major causes, according to that teacher. Who knows?

[dualstow]

Rather than accept the result of the democratic process, secessionists decided to break the country apart and start a war to keep it that way.
http://theweek.com/articles/718986/how- ... -civil-war

Jeez, that sounds like a description of the entire left and some of the right these days.

It truly does. Btw, I get the Week in print. Much of it is a bit left even for me, but most of it is reprinted excerpts from both sides of an issue, e.g. New York Times AND Slate AND Nat'l review. For about a buck an issue, it's a nice way to pass the time when the wife *still* isn't dressed and ready for dinner.