Will Trump be Re-elected?

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Will Trump be Re-elected?

Trump is more effective than people are willing to admit [ala Scott Adams] and will be re-elected.
24
37%
Hillary will run again in 2020, and thus Trump will beat her again.
3
5%
Trump will cause the GOP to lose one or both houses of congress in the mid-term elections.
6
9%
The Dems in congress will be so insufferable, Trumps wins by a small margin despite them.
15
23%
Trump will choose not to run for re-election, since he never really wanted the job anyway.
7
11%
Trump is a disaster and will lose by a landslide.
5
8%
Trump will not only lose, but will lose to a candidate so far to the left that people will wish he'd stayed.
3
5%
Other, please elaborate.
2
3%
 
Total votes: 65
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:20 am

TDS is a terrible affliction. I hope you sufferers get help soon or you will probably be suicidal when he is re-elected in a landslide next year.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by shekels » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:40 am

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:00 am
shekels wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:40 am
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 am


I'm no fan of political elites, but Trump isnt the answer. He is a tantrum in human form. The man is a con artist. Have you spoken with people who have personally worked for him? I have worked with two and both said he was the biggest scumbag they ever dealt with and these were non political comments...he literally stiffed them for work they had done. Listen to members of his staff from Tillerson to Kelly...they basically say he is an imbecile. Look into his relationship with Deutsche Bank, how many investors he has bilked through lies and deception. The man has been involved in thousands of lawsuits. What exactly makes you think this man is going to clean up corruption? Seriously?
I Don't see Trump cleaning up Corruption... It goes to deep..
But would the people have seen the amount of Corruption that has been exposed so far in the Government, with any other candidate?
Again you present Political/Business people that don't like him. Just as other Political/Business people do like him.

Edit. I bring up Political/Business peoples opinions as just that, opinions.
People I don't know and trust. They have agendas just like Elites and why should I believe what they are saying.
These aren't just any political / business people these are literally the people that he used to staff his administration who worked with Trump and to use the words of Don McGahn his former counsel, he has repeatedly asked them to do "crazy shit" and by crazy he means illegal. You think Trump has any regard for the rule of law? This isn't an us vs them issue. Democrats abuse power just as those across the aisle but Trump is in another league. I cannot understand how this is not completely obvious at this point. How many former staff members need to come out and say the guy is unhinged for Trump's faithful minions to come around to the facts?
Again, do you know these people.. Have you Talked to them.. Do you know if they have an AXE to grind..
Then I guess, Now you have decided to take that McGahn's opinion as a fact.
What about Bill Barr or Rudy Giuliani what are their opinions, and does it matter?
So Nancy can have a House Vote. but she has chosen not to Vote in the Impeachment matter. I again ask (WHY)?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm

All I wanted was a person who marginally improves the American condition, in whatever respects are important to you, and was someone who my kids and I could at least respect, if not look up to.

I think he's done some good things, but has failed on the debt, as it seems all presidents of either party fail. They all talk a good game before elected, then increase the debt with services or tax cuts or whatever.

On the second point he has been a disaster. If there truly are 30-40% of people out there who respect him, and are fine with the way he bullies and belittles people, and gives out middle school bully nicknames, I feel sorry for this country. He has done nothing to help unify the country. Democrats certainly have done nothing either.

They all suck (I think I ended a previous post with this as well) and we all deserve better, almost across the board.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:39 pm

I can understand someone who makes the argument that the ends justify the means when it comes to politics, but when it comes to Trump I'm not really sure what the end vision is. He is a horrible communicator, and his exaggeration which borders on ouright dishonesty makes me question even more what the truth is. If he can throw his weight around to influence NOAA scientists or pressure/bully the federal reserve who knows what to believe about any economic stats coming out of his executive departments. I'm no defender of the Democratic party...but it is so glaringly obvious how bad a leader he is that I frankly cannot understand how he still has 40 percent support. I started off as an optimist but his behavior has pushed me further and further away and I can no longer stomach his administration. I'm sorry shekels, when literally dozens of his staff come out and all say he is mentally unstable, (and then he tweets things about his great and unmatched wisdom....and talking about anihilitaing turkeys economy) it only provides first-hand evidence of how right they are. One doesn't even need to listen to others account of the man, just read his Twitter feed straight out of his mouth....if that isn't enough to convince you that he doesn't possess any leadership qualities much less a shred of dignity I don't know what will. At that point this becomes a religious debate and as he has said he could stand in fifth avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters....yep, our president actually said that....I guess you count among those.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:23 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm
All I wanted... ...was someone who my kids and I could at least respect, if not look up to.
I'll admit I'm highly cynical, but this is where I think many people are simply expecting too much.

I also question how much respect and reverence of previous presidents and other officials is the result of subsequent myth-making vs reality.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by shekels » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:34 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm
All I wanted was a person who marginally improves the American condition, in whatever respects are important to you, and was someone who my kids and I could at least respect, if not look up to.

I think he's done some good things, but has failed on the debt, as it seems all presidents of either party fail. They all talk a good game before elected, then increase the debt with services or tax cuts or whatever.

On the second point he has been a disaster. If there truly are 30-40% of people out there who respect him, and are fine with the way he bullies and belittles people, and gives out middle school bully nicknames, I feel sorry for this country. He has done nothing to help unify the country. Democrats certainly have done nothing either.

They all suck (I think I ended a previous post with this as well) and we all deserve better, almost across the board.
I agree that the citizens deserve better.
But as the majority of citizens are expecting something for nothing, and voting for who promises them more
the Debt will keep rising.
As the citizens vote to raise their living standards,and who gives them the best deals
there will be Government there to provide.
So who is their right mind would want to be President that has the respect of the people? :D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by shekels » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:40 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:39 pm
I can understand someone who makes the argument that the ends justify the means when it comes to politics, but when it comes to Trump I'm not really sure what the end vision is. He is a horrible communicator, and his exaggeration which borders on ouright dishonesty makes me question even more what the truth is. If he can throw his weight around to influence NOAA scientists or pressure/bully the federal reserve who knows what to believe about any economic stats coming out of his executive departments. I'm no defender of the Democratic party...but it is so glaringly obvious how bad a leader he is that I frankly cannot understand how he still has 40 percent support. I started off as an optimist but his behavior has pushed me further and further away and I can no longer stomach his administration. I'm sorry shekels, when literally dozens of his staff come out and all say he is mentally unstable, (and then he tweets things about his great and unmatched wisdom....and talking about anihilitaing turkeys economy) it only provides first-hand evidence of how right they are. One doesn't even need to listen to others account of the man, just read his Twitter feed straight out of his mouth....if that isn't enough to convince you that he doesn't possess any leadership qualities much less a shred of dignity I don't know what will. At that point this becomes a religious debate and as he has said he could stand in fifth avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters....yep, our president actually said that....I guess you count among those.
I know what Trump said. But obviously you are not listening.
So Nancy can have a House Vote. but she has chosen not to Vote in the Impeachment matter. I ask again (WHY)?
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:53 pm

shekels wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:40 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:39 pm
I can understand someone who makes the argument that the ends justify the means when it comes to politics, but when it comes to Trump I'm not really sure what the end vision is. He is a horrible communicator, and his exaggeration which borders on ouright dishonesty makes me question even more what the truth is. If he can throw his weight around to influence NOAA scientists or pressure/bully the federal reserve who knows what to believe about any economic stats coming out of his executive departments. I'm no defender of the Democratic party...but it is so glaringly obvious how bad a leader he is that I frankly cannot understand how he still has 40 percent support. I started off as an optimist but his behavior has pushed me further and further away and I can no longer stomach his administration. I'm sorry shekels, when literally dozens of his staff come out and all say he is mentally unstable, (and then he tweets things about his great and unmatched wisdom....and talking about anihilitaing turkeys economy) it only provides first-hand evidence of how right they are. One doesn't even need to listen to others account of the man, just read his Twitter feed straight out of his mouth....if that isn't enough to convince you that he doesn't possess any leadership qualities much less a shred of dignity I don't know what will. At that point this becomes a religious debate and as he has said he could stand in fifth avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters....yep, our president actually said that....I guess you count among those.
I know what Trump said. But obviously you are not listening.
So Nancy can have a House Vote. but she has chosen not to Vote in the Impeachment matter. I ask again (WHY)?
I can't channel the inner thoughts of Nancy Pelosi but I imagine they feel there is a lot more evidence to be gathered. The administration is stonewalling the process to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if some members of administration are found to be in contempt ...like Mike Pompeo who thinks he can just ignore house oversight committees. The Watergate scandal played out over the course of a year, this might take a while.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:15 pm

I’m not a Constitutional scholar, don’t play one on TV, and didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn last night. But this thread regarding the House “subpoenas” and their enforceability sounds interesting. No idea if it actually holds up.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1182 ... 98982.html
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by shekels » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:38 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:53 pm
shekels wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:40 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:39 pm
I can understand someone who makes the argument that the ends justify the means when it comes to politics, but when it comes to Trump I'm not really sure what the end vision is. He is a horrible communicator, and his exaggeration which borders on ouright dishonesty makes me question even more what the truth is. If he can throw his weight around to influence NOAA scientists or pressure/bully the federal reserve who knows what to believe about any economic stats coming out of his executive departments. I'm no defender of the Democratic party...but it is so glaringly obvious how bad a leader he is that I frankly cannot understand how he still has 40 percent support. I started off as an optimist but his behavior has pushed me further and further away and I can no longer stomach his administration. I'm sorry shekels, when literally dozens of his staff come out and all say he is mentally unstable, (and then he tweets things about his great and unmatched wisdom....and talking about anihilitaing turkeys economy) it only provides first-hand evidence of how right they are. One doesn't even need to listen to others account of the man, just read his Twitter feed straight out of his mouth....if that isn't enough to convince you that he doesn't possess any leadership qualities much less a shred of dignity I don't know what will. At that point this becomes a religious debate and as he has said he could stand in fifth avenue and shoot someone and not lose any voters....yep, our president actually said that....I guess you count among those.
I know what Trump said. But obviously you are not listening.
So Nancy can have a House Vote. but she has chosen not to Vote in the Impeachment matter. I ask again (WHY)?
I can't channel the inner thoughts of Nancy Pelosi but I imagine they feel there is a lot more evidence to be gathered. The administration is stonewalling the process to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if some members of administration are found to be in contempt ...like Mike Pompeo who thinks he can just ignore house oversight committees. The Watergate scandal played out over the course of a year, this might take a while.
Nancy wants to advance Public Sentiment to unseat the President of the United States.
After the Mueller investigation did not turn out like they wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEXFW8mDQnk

As you can see the Nancy and her Messengers are doing a good job.
YOU already have the belief of stonewalling and possible contempt charges by the administration..

So without a vote, Nancy and her Media emissaries can Play out her staged performance in front of a willing audience.
and has stopped Trump and Administration to mount a forceful defense.

If a House vote is taken and the majority vote to impeach,then Nancy of course knows the Constitution specifies that an impeached President is entitled to a trial in the Senate.

So Nancy seems to be Wrapping herself up in the Constitution, and Rule of Law while denying a President and Administration a Defense.
Corrupt Politics, and half of the citizens are accepting The President of the United States should be Impeached/Removed.

according to your Link:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-ne ... mpeachment

So what are we to Expect when the Shoes are on the other Feet?
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:11 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:23 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm
All I wanted... ...was someone who my kids and I could at least respect, if not look up to.
I'll admit I'm highly cynical, but this is where I think many people are simply expecting too much.

I also question how much respect and reverence of previous presidents and other officials is the result of subsequent myth-making vs reality.
Exactly. We are conditioned to admire our Presidents. Go Team, Go! Most of them have been psychologically defective, or at a minimum, duplicitous swampers.
To me, Jimmy Carter is the most admirable of the past 60 years. But when he was in office I thought he was a well-meaning fool.

In any event, I think it is better to point out to one's kids the flaws of all of our politicians. Don't buy into the reverence for these bums.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm

Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
There are plenty of bad traits on display, but I don’t think there is any Dem in the primary that lies more than Trump.

Overall I tend to feel like Republicans lie slightly more than dems.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:39 pm

Presidents all are liars. Most of them aren’t as transparent about it as Trump. :)
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by jacksonm2 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:02 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
There are plenty of bad traits on display, but I don’t think there is any Dem in the primary that lies more than Trump.

Overall I tend to feel like Republicans lie slightly more than dems.
Well, hot damn, would you be surprised if I told you I see things exactly the opposite? Probably not.

I don't recall any time when you could turn on the TV and get such completely different versions of the truth with people on both sides sounding as clear and convincing as anyone could be in presenting their version.

Makes you want to turn off the TV. Which maybe is a good idea but the circus can be addicting.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:48 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
I agree that all politicians lie to some extent, but the Dems this year are really out there.
Sanders is probably the least liar among the ones who have a shot at it.
Not that I support him; he's a commie and also corrupt (look up his wife's business dealings).
But he isn't that big a liar compared to Biden or Warren.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by doodle » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:37 am

I don't see how we can even have a discussion about anything in this country if we cant at least agree on the facts. Youd think in the age of information access to the truth would be easier, but in fact it's becoming much worse. I am really worried at this point regarding our countrys future. We seem to have split ourselves into two teams and are becoming ever more entrenched in our own sides perspective regarding how our country ought to look and operate. Perhaps the abolishment of a two party system would be helpful. Getting big money out of politics would probably also help but I just don't see our country making changes this big anytime soon.

With regards to facts, is there some agreed upon entity that we can refer to in order to determine the veracity of a particular politicians statements? Politifact for example rates around 75% of what Donald Trump says as false:

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/


The scorecards for Sanders and Warren are much better...still some lying but not nearly as much.

https://www.politifact.com/personalitie ... e-sanders/


https://www.politifact.com/personalitie ... th-warren/

(Interestingly, Warren seems to speak mostly in half truths...)


Ignoring Republican and Democrat for a moment and just looking at Trump (even before his election) he basically built a career on lies and deception. Look at his business history. No banks wanted to deal with him because he would lie all the time and wasnt considered a client who would honor his contracts. His relationship with Deutsche bank is incredibly shady and corrupt. The facts surrounding this preceed his election and information regarding his dealings and his character are conveyed by bank employees and business associates. I also think one should look at what Trump's staff say about him. When dozens of people with long successful careers all seem to be saying the same negative things about him, I don't think it makes sense to ignore it.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:40 am

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
There are plenty of bad traits on display, but I don’t think there is any Dem in the primary that lies more than Trump.

Overall I tend to feel like Republicans lie slightly more than dems.
I'm not sure about the Democratic candidates vs Trump.

But the current Dems/Left vs Reps/Right? It's not even a contest, IMO. You really think it's the other way around?
[It is a] fact beyond question that soldiers' battles, where one side is entrenched and invisible and the other advancing in attack, are things of the past, except in a wooded country or where all preliminary movements are concealed. We had soldiers' battles here, but by fighting them the lesson has been taught which the world will learn.
- James Barnes. 15 years before WW I.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by moda0306 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:27 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:40 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars? I don't try to memorize the offenses, but I'm pretty sure several of them have proven track records of lies. And I can think back to the same thing in other years. John Kerry, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Hillary. Usually they are inflating their bona fides in some fashion. "I was running to the plane as bullets were flying overhead", "I was fired because I was pregnant", those types of things.

Is this more common with Dems? Or am I seeing only what I want to see?
There are plenty of bad traits on display, but I don’t think there is any Dem in the primary that lies more than Trump.

Overall I tend to feel like Republicans lie slightly more than dems.
I'm not sure about the Democratic candidates vs Trump.

But the current Dems/Left vs Reps/Right? It's not even a contest, IMO. You really think it's the other way around?
I mean who do you want to focus on? Do we weight by power or just say "most members of congress?" Are we weighing everything they say or just what gets plastered in the media? Of course it's going to seem like dem candidates lie more than some random conservative congressman... they're in the news constantly. And I think most conservatives are trying to keep their heads down so they don't have to be on record defending Trump's ridiculous antics.

And the fact that you're "not sure" about Trump vs dem candidates... Really? Trump is a bullshit factory. I hate standard "politics-speak" as much as the next guy but Trump's bombast isn't any better, and he lies far more.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by I Shrugged » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:35 pm

I won't stand up for Trump on this question. I'm setting him aside for the moment.

I'm just saying that the Dems have this propensity to lie about the dumbest things. They don't feel good enough about their qualifications, so they make these desperate, comical lies. It's self-parody.

I wish Tulsi Gabbard would get more traction. But she's too genuine to know how to get ahead in the Democrat game.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by sophie » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Is it just me, or is the crop of 2020 Dems unusually filled with liars?
Actually, I'd be a lot less comfortable about them if they're all telling the truth!

Some wag once said "How do you know a politician is lying? Answer: his mouth is moving." How true that is (and it applies to the female gender as well).
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by shekels » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:49 am

I wonder is it the Lying, or is it the Hate that has infested or System.
That is doing the most harm.

Edit: As we are Lied to all the time by TV, Radio,Internet Advertisements.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by Tyler » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:41 am

sophie wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 am
Actually, I'd be a lot less comfortable about them if they're all telling the truth!
No kidding. The deep pockets and motivated niche voter groups in the primary are clearly all single-issue ideologues, and by pandering to each one the candidates all sound completely insane.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by flyingpylon » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:34 pm

Tyler wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:41 am
sophie wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 am
Actually, I'd be a lot less comfortable about them if they're all telling the truth!
No kidding. The deep pockets and motivated niche voter groups in the primary are clearly all single-issue ideologues, and by pandering to each one the candidates all sound completely insane.
One theory is that the party is "vote harvesting". They have candidates that have no realistic chance of becoming the nominee align themselves with particular issues. People interested in those issues support and engage with those candidates. During the nomination process, candidates drop out and turn their supporters, money, and voter data over to the party and eventual nominee. The party gets data and a more engaged base, the nominee avoids pandering to the extremists directly, and the candidates get experience, national exposure, and perhaps a shot at VP or a cabinet position.
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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:32 pm

When it comes to those on the left standing up for the "truth" I think you need only look to judge Kavanaugh. On the one year anniversary of his confirmation to the supreme court there was a group of protesters outside the supreme court building protesting that they had put an "obvious" sexual predator on the high court. One of the speakers was Julie Swetnick who remembers him spiking the punch so he and his friend could gang-rape women at parties.

That woman's account of events has been completely discredited but the fact that she was invited to speak tells you all you need to know about the far left's relationship with the truth.

Personally, I think those people are truly dangerous because they are suffering from some form of extreme pathology.
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