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Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:25 am
by dualstow
I agree, Maddy. Hey, what do you think about having a cabin as your avatar, btw?

A good friend of mine spends way too much time moaning about Trump. I'm not a fan, but I had to remind my friend that moaning is not going to solve anything, and it brings other people down.

I do like reading level-headed, balanced articles on Trump. I wish I could post Stephen Kotkin's full article from the most recent 'Foreign Affairs'. It's mostly a criticism of the Mueller report, but here are a couple excerpts.
Trump’s flaws and transgressions are now well documented. Yet he has not perpetrated a catastrophe remotely on the scale of the Iraq war or the global financial crisis.
...
Trump’s opponents, meanwhile, would have to admit that their portrait of him as a singular threat to the republic lacks context and perspective. (Imagine, for example, if a special counsel had investigated President Lyndon Johnson’s campaigns and White House years while Johnson was still in office: the results would not have been pretty.)
This link is no good if you don't have a subscription. I'm merely citing my references:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... can-hustle

Who is the author? https://history.princeton.edu/people/stephen-kotkin

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:38 am
by Cortopassi
I generally do not have issue with what Trump is doing.

I have a huge issue in the way he goes about what he's doing.

The Bushes got us into multiple wars that cost trillions and thousands of lives, but they were presidential about it. It sounds totally stupid, I know.

But take the latest with Iran for example. It is (IMO) mainly because of Trump and how he approaches things and blatantly lies and twists things that so many more around the world are thinking the tanker attacks were a false flag and can't take the US's word on anything.

A lot will say that he couldn't get done what he has if he didn't use his style. Possibly true. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I don't obsess about it, but it pains me that Americans can't agree on damn near anything anymore.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:54 am
by dualstow
I vacillate between your viewpoint, Corto, and the feeling that it's refreshing to have a Kim Jong Eun-level crazy person in the White House who keeps the rest of the world guessing. The latter feeling, however, is fleeting.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:19 pm
by Maddy
dualstow wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:25 am
I agree, Maddy. Hey, what do you think about having a cabin as your avatar, btw?
I used to have one, but a couple of years ago it disappeared. Never could figure out how to resurrect it.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:29 pm
by Xan
There was a forum transition (the one before last, I think?) in which the avatars were all lost. It's easy for me to think that wouldn't have happened on my watch, but I don't know the issues that were involved. Maddy's cabin and Moda's Matthew Lesko are together in the ether somewhere. Maddy, I do hope you'll find a nice cabin picture and replace it.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:31 pm
by dualstow

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm
by moda0306
flyingpylon wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:47 am
Here's a challenge for anyone that is relatively certain that there's nothing Trump could do or say to change their opinion about him:

Ignore him for a month or two. At the end, see if your life was better or worse during that time. Then move forward as you wish.
Does this apply to his knuckle-dragging perma-defenders/supporters as well as the folks who dislike him? Or was this just meant as a jab at the latter?

For the record, I'm someone who is quite confident that he could do or say some things that could change my opinion of him. Trouble is, he isn't doing or saying things that far outside of what I expected of him coming into the presidency.
Maddy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:06 am
I'm convinced that many people would sooner sacrifice their happiness and prosperity than forgo their insane obsession with Trump. In fact, I think Trump has become a one-size-fits-all excuse for many people for their failure to do anything productive with their lives.
What about your insane obsession with "The Left?" Sounds a lot like the conservatives who b!tched about Obama for 8 years claiming he was a muslim traitor commie.

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans, including but definitely not limited to tens of millions of moronic conservatives, that substitute a focus on self-improvement for a focus on all the political wrongs they are "victims" of, and the impending doom of (insert political bogeyman here), when in reality they're just bitter and suck at life and want to point the finger at someone other than themselves. To think it's limited to liberals is a bit asinine.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:10 pm
by Maddy
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm

What about your insane obsession with "The Left?" Sounds a lot like the conservatives who b!tched about Obama for 8 years claiming he was a muslim traitor commie.

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans, including but definitely not limited to tens of millions of moronic conservatives, that substitute a focus on self-improvement for a focus on all the political wrongs they are "victims" of, and the impending doom of (insert political bogeyman here), when in reality they're just bitter and suck at life and want to point the finger at someone other than themselves. To think it's limited to liberals is a bit asinine.
My disrespect for the Left hasn't kept me from moving forward in my life. I've achieved nearly everything I wanted to and am, by at least my own standards, living the "dream life." Contrast that to an ever-increasing number of progressives, particularly in the millennial age group, who have declared it impossible to succeed in life because of all the impediments that the rest of the world has put in their paths.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:40 pm
by pugchief
Maddy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:10 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm

What about your insane obsession with "The Left?" Sounds a lot like the conservatives who b!tched about Obama for 8 years claiming he was a muslim traitor commie.

I'm sure there are plenty of Americans, including but definitely not limited to tens of millions of moronic conservatives, that substitute a focus on self-improvement for a focus on all the political wrongs they are "victims" of, and the impending doom of (insert political bogeyman here), when in reality they're just bitter and suck at life and want to point the finger at someone other than themselves. To think it's limited to liberals is a bit asinine.
My disrespect for the Left hasn't kept me from moving forward in my life. I've achieved nearly everything I wanted to and am, by at least my own standards, living the "dream life." Contrast that to an ever-increasing number of progressives, particularly in the millennial age group, who have declared it impossible to succeed in life because of all the impediments that the rest of the world has put in their paths.
^This
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm

{Trump's} knuckle-dragging perma-defenders/supporters ...and... moronic conservatives
Don't you think that ad hominem attacks (particularly against people who aren't even here to defend themselves - or are you talking about the rest of us here?) cheapen your argument?

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:57 pm
by Xan
I think Moda is saying that the phenomenon of people blaming things outside their control for things going wrong in their lives is not unique to one side of the proverbial aisle. As far as how prevalent it is one place versus another, I don't know. Can anybody come up with something approaching hard numbers?

I think Moda would agree (not to speak for you!) that there are knuckle-dragging perma-supporters on both sides of the aisle as well. He was asking whether flyingpylon's suggestion applied to the pro-Trump ones.

There's no need to pile on Moda, and Moda probably could be a little better about being less abrasive. Let's stay a place where people who disagree can discuss things reasonably rather than another echo chamber.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:52 am
by flyingpylon
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:57 pm
He was asking whether flyingpylon's suggestion applied to the pro-Trump ones.
It didn’t, because the discussion was specifically about Trump.

But generally speaking, I don’t advise that people allow things that bother them to live rent-free in their head. It doesn’t seem healthy. A guy named Harry Browne explained it better in his book “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World”.

That said, everyone needs to do what’s right for them. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what that is.

Re: Will Trump be Re-elected?

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:12 am
by Maddy
flyingpylon wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:52 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:57 pm
He was asking whether flyingpylon's suggestion applied to the pro-Trump ones.
It didn’t, because the discussion was specifically about Trump.

But generally speaking, I don’t advise that people allow things that bother them to live rent-free in their head. It doesn’t seem healthy. A guy named Harry Browne explained it better in his book “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World”.

That said, everyone needs to do what’s right for them. Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what that is.
Yeah, I've thought about Harry Brown's "How I Found Freedom" book over and over as we've seen this anti-Trump movement play out. There couldn't be a more salient example of the "traps" Harry Browne talks about, especially when it comes to what he calls "direct alternatives" and "indirect" ones. The key for him is to make individual choices that actually move us forward toward our objectives--not choices that represent futile cathartic gestures or choices that expect other people to change (or that require them to do so). Significantly, the "progressive" platform is the antithesis of everything Harry stood for.