Trump as tragicomedy

[vnatale]

I think we are long past the idea that the way Trump operates is all part of a strategy. For whatever reason the way he operates worked in the corporate world, but not so much in the political one.

Would I vote for a pimp and three hookers who could put the country back on track? No. Some level of morality and decency has to be part of the job. I would vote for someone who:

1) makes it clear that the US does not need military bases all over the world and does not need to have a military budget the size of the next 10 (or whatever) countries combined and repurposes that money and talent at home.
2) knows how to make, and live within a real balanced budget
3) figures out the whole medical care/prescription drug fiasco
4) small kids can look up to and feel good about him/her as president
5) does not make decisions based off special interest lobbying but rather what's best for the country.

among some other things. But those are the big five.

Everything has become a conservative/liberal arguing point. Nothing seems to be discussed from a what's best for America standpoint much anymore.

Stuper, your comments about McCain, I tend to echo those. I do not want to disparage the dead, and he seemed to be a decent guy, but at least some of your points are correct, esp. being too hawkish on war.

Great list of 5!

Vinny

[vnatale]

No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.

LOL! Busted!

This is why I rarely indulge in this stuff (I really have to be bored). There are very few people in today's world (it seems) that care to alter their opinions.

I definitely change my opinions over time!

2008, sick of Bush and war and wanted hope and change, voted for Obama over warmongering McCain.
2014, sick of Quinn as governor, voted Rauner
2016 sick of hope and change and not wanting war mongering Clinton, and the Clinton name, I voted Trump
2018, I regret greatly that I voted for Trump, but the other choice wasn't any better, so I fault the parties for letting these two get to the final round.
2018, hopeful the dems take the house, just to see Trump's head explode.
2018 hopeful Rauner gets destroyed in the election
2015-2017, listened to Rush on my drive home for lunch
2018, listen to Thom Hartmann most drives

About every 4 years or so I flip....!

2020! As of today, who gets your November 2020 votes?

You may be one of those rare "undecided's" who both parties spend SO much money to get YOUR vote!



Vinny

[vnatale]

I support some of the same policies as Trump, such as the absolutely incredible idea that the American president should actually put the interests of the American people first, as opposed to people from other countries.

As a bonus, I said to anybody who would listen long before the election that I hoped Trump would win because it would be much more entertaining if he did.

CANNOT deny the entertainment factor! I've many times stated that if 10 years ago someone had written a fiction book which had all the exact details of the Trump campaign / presidency to date that no one would have published it because it would have been 100% rejected on the basis of it just being TOO unbelievable!

Vinny

[vnatale]

If anything (and I think the whole analogy is a stretch), Trump is more like one of the pagan kings who in some way advanced God's plan, but were not themselves among God's people. Cyrus the Great, perhaps.

"People are so shocked when they find ... out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church," he said.

Sounds okay so far. He's claiming to be a Christian and I have no reason not to take him at his word.

Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

"I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

hmm.

"I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad."

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" asked Trump. "I work hard, I'm an honorable person."

This all sounds like he doesn't even know what a Christian is, let alone that he is one. Also, either the outlook or the cathechesis (or, likely, both) of whatever Presbyterian church we're talking about is absolutely terrible.

Contrast that with David, who said:

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. (He's like The Shadow that way.) Trying to do better doesn't do it. We need a new one from outside.

Of course, David had to have his violations of God's law thrown in his face to reach this point. What we would call good Law preaching, I suppose. That could still happen for Trump, but hasn't (yet), it would seem.


Sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics ... index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ess-2016-1
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trum ... eo-141856/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV


Edit: I should point out that I don't think it's necessary for POTUS to be a Christian.

Excellent support to your lead off statement...

Vinny

[vnatale]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

Well I really have no idea what God's plans are, and I so I have no idea whether Trump is advancing them. Romans tells us that all authorities are put in place by God, and also that all things work together for the ultimate good of the elect, so to that extent, he's advancing God's plans, but in exactly the sort of way that Hillary would have.

Over the past several years I've gotten a lot less certain about exactly what the "right" way is to arrange society, largely thanks to you, Moda, and (begrudgingly) to Kshartle. I have my preferences (which are largely unchanged), but I no longer confuse them with the One and Only Way Things Should Be. As a result I take the political arena much less personally, which is only good for my health and well-being, and I try to find my identity in Christ (that is, whatever God says about me must certainly be true) and not in some political affiliation, which frees me to stop worrying about the things that will pass away, and instead to (try to) care about all my neighbors as people.

What I was trying to say earlier was not that Trump is a Cyrus, only that that's his ceiling: at BEST he's Cyrus and not David.

I think a lot of Christians support Trump for one or more of the following reasons:
* [sadly] They, like him, have a terribly broken view of what a Christian is.
* He promised to nominate to the Supreme Court people "like Scalia" which could ultimately overturn Roe v Wade. This one would put him in the Cyrus category for many. I don't think the recent addition to the Court is enough, but if he were to also replace Ginsburg and possibly even Breyer, things could get interesting. Moda, you should see that Collins speech where she talks about Kavanaugh's strong belief in stare decisis.
* He doesn't see straight white male Christians as the cause of all the world's problems. This could also be Cyrus-y.


EDIT: chopped out some other discussion for replying in the other thread.

Thanks for this. Have utmost respect for you in what you describe regarding yourself in the third paragraph.

Vinny

[vnatale]

I read Bob Woodward's book Fear, and assuming his sources and details are accurate...

It might be worth reading some critical reviews of Fear and Woodward's other books for additional input, if you haven't already.

I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.

On the way Trump operates -- I have had 13 different jobs in almost 30 years of working. I have worked at companies where the owner/CEO/manager was a tyrant, a bigot, a narcissist, a back stabber, and a few where they were genuinely good people and motivators. Sure you can lead with a stick, but I have always performed my best when I had respect for my manager and/or the CEO vs. hating/fearing them.

13 jobs in 30 years!!! Were several of those jobs with some of the same companies? Or, also 13 different employers?!!

In the last 41 years I've been employed I've only had five employers (one of them was for only one year with all the others being fairly long-termed).

VInny

[vnatale]

Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.

Just imagine if he spent a few days tweeting crap about medical monopolies and it's time to break them up and reduce costs.

I'll hand it to him currently, getting out of Syria seems to have pissed a lot of people off, but I agree with that.

He has such a grasp of tweeting to incite and cause people to love him or have their heads explode that I wish it was put to better use.

If the environment is not as the media portrays, why do you have Cohen's comments, Tillerson's comments, Mattis with his letter, his berating of Sessions and such happening?

If he stopped the tweeting, 75% of the negative news bias goes away. Nearly every story in recent memory, negative on Trump, always starts with a "And this is what President Trump tweeted early this morning...."

Yes, the tweets intentionally make the lamestream media's heads explode on a regular basis.
And they get the base fired up.

As for the rest of your questions:

Cohen is a crappy lawyer who has been involved in some shady business that probably shouldn't be illegal but is, thanks to the web of regulations around everyone, especially in NY. He is trying to throw Trump under the bus to avoid going to prison for the rest of his life.

Tillerson's reported comments may or may not be accurately reported.

Mattis is a war hawk and doesn't want the US to pull out of our overseas morasses.

Sessions was a seditious pile of crap who did his best to sabotage Trump in every way.

As for me, I can't think of a President in my lifetime who has been better than Trump overall.

Regarding your comments of Cohen / Tillerson / Mattis / Sessions? What do they all have in common? One person put them in their positions. Therefore what does that say about that person's judgement?

I assume you have hired / fired people? I have done both? And, I think my batting average is much higher than Trump's in this area.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Too bad Trump’s charity went under. I was just going to donate my life savings.

Dualstow!!!!

Vinny

[vnatale]

That said I'm happy to see the wars ending and the criminal justice reform bill that was passed. I thought when the market tanked he'd be cranking up wars... not winding them down. Kudos to him for that.

If Trump succeeds in taking on the Military Industrial Complex and transforming what Pat Buchanan calls "The War Party" into a party committed to non-interventionism that would be no small feat, would it not?

Now, pray tell, who is going to do that for the Democratic party? They have been showing their true colors as just another branch of the The War Party since Trump announced the policy of middle east withdrawal.

As a near lifetime member of the military industrial complex, we need to bring back the draft. I think the vast majority of American's could care less about foreign policy and foreign wars unless it affects them personally. The whole thing has been "outsourced" to the all volunteer military and has created a disengaged citizenry when it comes to this stuff who will not check their government's stupidity. It wasn't always like this (but then again the Legislative Branch wasn't always like this either.). I am beyond baffled why anyone thinks it's a good idea to be in Afghanistan 18 and the Iraqish area 15 years later.

Of course when we did have the draft we had those in the military who just wanted to do their mandated time and then get out.

Since then we've had a "professional" military.

Is it possible for you to describe the demographics of our military as you see it?

From my limited knowledge I'd say that the current military must be superior in that it has those who actually want to be in it and would presumably have greater motivation to perform so as to be promoted. On the other hand, there will be those who have no other way to get a job or want to be in for just limited amount of time so as to get the benefits (e.g., paid college). Not criticizing either of those two groups but they are not really viewing the military as a profession.

Vinny

[vnatale]

For anyone who thinks that Trump is wrong to label the mainstream media as fake news, can you please explain their current coverage of his conversation with a child about Santa Claus?

First of all, who cares? Second of all, now it's news when somebody tells another person the truth? It's really quite rich when you think about it. You certainly won't hear much of the truth from the mainstream media.

Just one more small example of exactly what he rightly describes as fake news.

And yet people are saying, apparently with straight faces, that he is threatening our First Amendment rights by using this type of language. Guess what? The president also has a first amendment right. The voters will get to choose which version of reality they believe more. If I were a voting man, which I'm not, I know which version I would choose. Frankly, for the first time in 34 years, I'm tempted to register to vote for Trump in 2020, just because I'm so tired of reading all the propaganda against him.

This the second time tonight that I've read that you are not a voting man. The first time I thought it was because you did not live in this country. But now after reading all this support you have for Trump it seems strange that you are NOT a voting man. Do you wish to reveal why you have not been a voting man?

Vinny

[vnatale]

That's a real "let them eat cake" sentiment.

Yes, it is, and he should keep his trap shut if he can't say something less trite.

But I have a really hard time generating any sympathy for the furloughed workers, as
1. they should have some cash put aside for just such an emergency, especially knowing that these shutdowns occur with some frequency, and
2. they are basically getting a free, paid vacation as the back pay will eventually be provided, without ever having to do the work.
Where can I get that deal?

At the time (and still now) I shared your beliefs regarding #'s 1 & 2.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Getting back to the thread title, I came across this little diddy and thought some of you might find it enjoyable, funny, disgusting, or a bunch of crap. Pick your own descriptor.

Like many citizens, I've wondered and tried hard to understand why Trump has such a remarkable following. (It's obvious why he probably should not!) Then a friend sent me this raccoon story. It makes no difference about your political leanings, this is just a good explanation of 'WHY?' If you really want to know how the majority of people feel.
....................................
You've been on vacation for two weeks, you come home, and your basement is infested with raccoons. Hundreds of rabid, messy, mean raccoons have overtaken your basement. You want them gone immediately. You call the city, 4 different exterminators, but nobody can handle the job But there is this one guy and he guarantees you to get rid of them, so you hire him. You don't care if the guy smells, you don't care if the guy swears, you don't care if he's an alcoholic, you don't care how many times he's been married, you don't care if he has a plumber's crack, you simply want those raccoons gone! You want your problem fixed! He's the guy. He's the best. Period !

Here's why we want Trump, yes he's a bit of an ass, yes he's an egomaniac, but we don't care. The country is a mess because politicians suck, the Republicans and Democrats can be two-faced & gutless, and illegals are everywhere. We want it all fixed! We don't care that Trump is crude, we don't care that he insults people, we don't care that he has changed positions, we don't care that he's been married 3 times, we don't care that he fights with Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell, we don't care that he doesn't know the name of some Muslim terrorist. This country is weak, bankrupt, our enemies are making fun of us, we are being invaded by illegals, we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; "AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED" and Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.

We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed. Trump may not be a saint, but he doesn't have lobbyist money holding him, he doesn't have political correctness restraining him, all you know is that he has been very successful, a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, he's not a cowardly politician. And he says he'll fix it, and we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar. Also, we don't care if the guy has bad hair. We just want those raccoons gone, out of our house, NOW.

You are welcome to pass this on. I feel this is why thousands of people who haven't voted in 25 years are getting involved. The raccoons have got to go.

I find it that if anyone believes the above then that person votes for Trump. However, there is much to dispute in all that it alleges. And, again, reasonable people will differ on what is true in it and what is not. The Trump voter probably agrees with every word of it.

Vinny