Trump as tragicomedy

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dualstow
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:52 pm

Very interesting (and sad), and pretty close to what I was thinking. Except Honduras!
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:33 pm
technovelist wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:09 pm
The best solution to immigration, but one that no one is even proposing, is to get rid of the welfare state.
You do realize the welfare state is a very minor cause at best of immigration, right? Far and away the largest causes of immigration are large scale violence and catastrophic environmental failure. The former is the usual cause starting in the 20th century and both have been a consistent theme of recorded human history with the latter being a simple thing like drought, crop failure etc.

So what's the relevance now...most illegal immigrants south of the border are flowing from Central American countries whose states are no longer states that operate at any level other than violence and corruption.

P.S. Anarchism is a really, really, really stupid philosophy normally espoused by people surrounded and protected by a state who haven't taken the time to check out history or understand how humans in groups actually operate and behave normally. This is not the same as saying all states are good and an "evil" state can't wreak immense havoc on other states and the state's citizens. However, the vast majority of humanity prefers to be in a state with the physical safety they provide. Any benefits above safety are a nice bonus. The political literature of the late 1600s to the early 1800s is absolutely phenomenal on this point. Some great minds have hashed this topic over thoroughly.

There is no possible way you can make a good case for anarchism without also assuming utopianism...and most people intuitively understand the problem with that assumption.
Statism is a really, really stupid philosophy normally espoused by people who have been brainwashed by the "publik skool" system meant to keep the population in thrall to their masters. How many millions of people have been murdered by States? How many hundreds have been murdered by self-styled anarchists?

As for anarchism, you obviously know very little about it. Read https://www.amazon.com/Spontaneous-Orde ... B012DL2SQ2 and get back to us.
Last edited by technovelist on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:26 pm

Can't it be said that statism is the emergent order that forms out of anarchy?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kbg » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:37 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:41 pm
Just saw kbg's post...historically you may be right, but there is something different about the Central American migration that's going on now. There are Americans going down there to help recruit for the caravans, and the "coyotes" driving them are earning a very handsome profit.
Sure there's an economic aspect to it, not saying there isn't. However, do you really think they would be coming here if their countries were economically sound? And why aren't t their countries economically sound? Interestingly we don't have a Canadian, German or Japanese immigration problem.

But my main point...poor economies in the countries we are talking about is a symptom not the cause.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:27 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:26 pm
Can't it be said that statism is the emergent order that forms out of anarchy?
What I (and most others) mean by "Statism" is the political position that a State is either necessary or desirable, not the mere existence of States, which is an historical fact.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by sophie » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:45 am

Kbg wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:37 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:41 pm
Just saw kbg's post...historically you may be right, but there is something different about the Central American migration that's going on now. There are Americans going down there to help recruit for the caravans, and the "coyotes" driving them are earning a very handsome profit.
Sure there's an economic aspect to it, not saying there isn't. However, do you really think they would be coming here if their countries were economically sound? And why aren't t their countries economically sound? Interestingly we don't have a Canadian, German or Japanese immigration problem.

But my main point...poor economies in the countries we are talking about is a symptom not the cause.
I don't think it's that Central American economies are "unsound", simply that the US's is better. Which leads many Central American citizens to want to trade up, and I can't say I blame them. Historically, this is enough to spur emigration - you don't necessarily need a national catastrophe to explain it. I just question the emerging principle that immigration to the US is a "human right." I would also like our government to tackle the question of what a sensible level of unskilled immigration should be, in order to preserve that quality of life & economic stability that is attracting immigrants here to begin with - instead of simply leaving the front door wide open.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by drumminj » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:50 am

sophie wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:45 am
I don't think it's that Central American economies are "unsound", simply that the US's is better...<snip>...I just question the emerging principle that immigration to the US is a "human right."
I think it's certainly reflecting in this context on what is it that has made the US a better place w.r.t. economic freedom, opportunity, etc. Diluting the cultural values, mindset, etc, is likely to have an (negative) impact on the future state of things.

IMO, this is where controlled immigration is critical.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:19 pm

Instead of the nuclear doomsday clock, we need one for the USA splitting up. It's human nature to want to associate with "your own kind". I think we will split up, maybe in our lifetimes. I thought so before 2016. Now even more.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:39 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:19 pm
Instead of the nuclear doomsday clock, we need one for the USA splitting up. It's human nature to want to associate with "your own kind". I think we will split up, maybe in our lifetimes. I thought so before 2016. Now even more.
Are you talking politics or .... “race war”?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:59 pm

Politics. And culture.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by boglerdude » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 am

Race war, letting the poor die...thread would be locked on Bogleheads xD (not good to suppress discussion)

We need to extend rail so housing can be built on less expensive land. With a lower cost of living we can have a lower minimum wage and therefore more jobs and GDP. All businesses could be open 24/7 for example, when you dont need to pay the night shift cashier $100/night
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:22 am

Why do we need a minimum wage at all?

I thought we had a free-market economy. That's what the media likes to claim when it's convenient. Let market forces decide what each person's labor is worth.

I suspect, although maybe it's hard to prove, that on the whole, a minimum wage just ends up taking jobs away from low-skill people by incentivizing automation or off-shoring to countries that don't have a minimum wage anyway.
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