Trump as tragicomedy

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dualstow
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:49 pm

I read the first article and it was pretty frustrating. “Be nice because he’s dead” is the quintessential straw man comment. I admired his character when he was alive (though I did not vote for him). I certainly don’t think McCain was perfect, flawless. I think he had character.

But this article, jeez. A Native American with a chip on her shoulder could’ve submitted that huffpost article about virtually any person who was for the Iraq War, the Afghanistan war, or even just the surge. It is so pathetically not about McCain and his long history that I don’t know how it got published. Weak.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 am

clacy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:04 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:40 pm
The Dems have Soros, the Pubs have the Koch's. What's the difference really?
Koch's hate Trump, and the Republican Party is now the Trump party. I predict that the Koch's will back Dems by 2020.

They want their corporatocracy and cheap labor.
So are the Koch's part of "the left?"

Further, I don't think they hate him. Trump was actually right when he said that he gave them huge tax cuts and regulatory decreases. If they lose a bit on trade-wars they'll still be net-beneficiaries of the Trump presidency methinks.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by clacy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:59 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:23 am


So are the Koch's part of "the left?"

Further, I don't think they hate him. Trump was actually right when he said that he gave them huge tax cuts and regulatory decreases. If they lose a bit on trade-wars they'll still be net-beneficiaries of the Trump presidency methinks.

No, the Kochs are neo-cons. Neo-cons are now far more aligned with the Clinton-wing of the Dem party than Trump.

As I see it, Trump has essentially remade the Republican party into a coalition between conservatives and the working class in the upper midwest.

Now the 2 Dem factions are playing tug-of-war for control of their party. You have the Socialist/ultra-progressives battling with the old Neo-lib/corporatists for the future of the Dem party.

Then you have the displaced Neo-cons who were heavily in favor of globalism. They now are far more closely aligned with the Clinton/Obama corporatist wing of the Dems now. When people used to say that both parties are basically the same, that's what they meant (back when the Neo-cons ala Bush controlled the R's and the Clintons/Obama controlled the D's). The R's and D's duked it out politically in races, but usually had fairly minor disagreements about most economic and geo-political policy issues.

That is how I see people like Koch going. They are not going to like the rising wages from protectionist policies focused on the working class in America.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Desert » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:05 am

Maddy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:14 pm
Desert wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 pm
Here's an article I read some months ago regarding Soros:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... py/547247/

I'd like to see a source from Maddy though.
Nope. If you're really interested (and I don't believe you are), there are a ton of sources on the internet that link to the 990s. It's all in the public record.
That's a classic Alex Jones response (yes, I used to watch him occasionally on local TV back in the early 2000's in Austin, for entertainment value). I'm guessing your basic ideology comes from Jones and/or D'Souza. That's a tough mental place to live, I'm thinking. The globalist leftists are behind every bad thing that happens in the world, and only Trump can save us.

It's probably a good time to post this article. No, Trump isn't Hitler. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And who was picking on Germany? Yes, it was the media and the evil left.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-w ... democracy/
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:01 am

The Nation is the oldest continuously published weekly magazine in the United States, and the most widely read weekly journal of progressive political and cultural news, opinion, and analysis.

Godwin's Law rules! ;) It appears a goal of The Nation is to create heaven on earth via its articles. The bias against Trump (via not so subtle allusions to Hitler) is obvious in the linked article. The articles I looked at are not quite SJW on steroids but lean heavily that way in my opinion. Not to get too religious, but this is a case where the proper distinction of God's Law and God's Gospel is really helpful. Life is so much less stressful and more peaceful when we try to build each other and our government up rather than tear each other down.
Vocation - doing what God has given me to do for the sake of the other.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:33 am

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:05 am
Maddy wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:14 pm
Desert wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 pm
Here's an article I read some months ago regarding Soros:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... py/547247/

I'd like to see a source from Maddy though.
Nope. If you're really interested (and I don't believe you are), there are a ton of sources on the internet that link to the 990s. It's all in the public record.
That's a classic Alex Jones response (yes, I used to watch him occasionally on local TV back in the early 2000's in Austin, for entertainment value). I'm guessing your basic ideology comes from Jones and/or D'Souza. That's a tough mental place to live, I'm thinking. The globalist leftists are behind every bad thing that happens in the world, and only Trump can save us.
While I hate to immediately rush to D'Souza/Jones conspiracy nonsense, since Maddy didn't name them specifically when I asked for sources, it certainly feels a bit off...

"The truth is out there! Somewhere... but EVERYWHERE... if you can find it... but its OBVIOUS... but I don't have regular sources."

IDK it just feels like one of those things that make sense if you pre-suppose all the premises buried in the conclusions its trying to get you to believe, as a narrative that constantly "begs the question."

But IDK I probably used to say the same about some conspiracies that I believe in large parts of today. I try to glean the gems out of people's narratives even if I don't agree with all of them. For instance, for all the garbage analysis Austrian Economics has put out since the Great Recession & Financial Crisis, I think they have a lot to add that I effectively brushed aside regarding the Federal Reserve (from a corruption/cronyism standpoint... not a "OMG HYPERINFLATION AND ARTIFICIALLY LOW INTEREST RATES" perspective).

Also I think "conspiracy theories' get way too much negative press and attitude by folks. The "conspiracy theory" of 9/11 trutherism did WAY less damage than the establishment media/govt/publicly-parroted narrative of almost anything positively related to national security & foreign interventions for several years after 9/11. So I have a lot more patience with conspiracy theories than I did back then. There's usually something in their narratives that has some very useful truth.

So anyway, I just wish Maddy would just build us a better roadmap to these conclusions we are supposed to be arriving at. All the stuff Chomsky quotes in his "conspiracy theory narratives" is "public information" as well, but I would never ask folks to just sort through state department documents to believe me when I say "the government has rarely had good intentions overseas." I'd link you to one of 20 Chomsky lectures, where he specifically lists his sources. I just don't know how Maddy is building up those conclusions about "The Left" being such a unique and monolithic political force...
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by l82start » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:00 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:33 am
I just don't know how Maddy is building up those conclusions about "The Left" being such a unique and monolithic political force...
its not that the left is a unique an monolithic political force, its that those who would seek to be at the top of any monolithic political force have shared goals and therefore shared methodology, (almost always requiring more government in some form) I have come to a point where I struggle to see any real difference between the Dick Cheney's of the world riling up the "patriotism of fly over country red-necks (useful idiots) to get the military industrial complex more power control money, and the George Soros's of the world riling up the antifa left wing militants and sjw millennials (useful idiots) to get more power control and money.. especially when neither one of those "great changes in direction" ever reduces the amount of power control and money that was just given to the so called "other side" ...
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm

No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:08 pm

Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm
No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.

LOL! Busted!

This is why I rarely indulge in this stuff (I really have to be bored). There are very few people in today's world (it seems) that care to alter their opinions.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:28 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:08 pm
Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm
No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.

LOL! Busted!

This is why I rarely indulge in this stuff (I really have to be bored). There are very few people in today's world (it seems) that care to alter their opinions.
I definitely change my opinions over time!

2008, sick of Bush and war and wanted hope and change, voted for Obama over warmongering McCain.
2014, sick of Quinn as governor, voted Rauner
2016 sick of hope and change and not wanting war mongering Clinton, and the Clinton name, I voted Trump
2018, I regret greatly that I voted for Trump, but the other choice wasn't any better, so I fault the parties for letting these two get to the final round.
2018, hopeful the dems take the house, just to see Trump's head explode.
2018 hopeful Rauner gets destroyed in the election
2015-2017, listened to Rush on my drive home for lunch
2018, listen to Thom Hartmann most drives

About every 4 years or so I flip....!
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm
No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.
Maddy,

The reason I repeat my "show me some sources" routine is that 1) you've barely provided any, 2) the few you have are weak or mixed-at-best, 3) none of them supported your new arguments about Soros' supporting too-far-leftish groups, and 4) even if he does or your other sources are correct about a few points, it doesn't deductively follow that there's a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Your "arguments" are just a bunch of anti-leftist question-begging. I'm trying to hand you a damn olive branch here and allow you to support your claims rather than looking like hotbed of right-wing conspiracy theories.

There's gotta be someone out there that writes articles that support the same arguments you would, right? Anyone? Any journalist or commentator that doesn't mind posting sources in their articles or takes a deeper dive into the issues? Give us ONE NAME and I'll do the digging for the 90% of us that aren't already wallowing in your fact-patterns & analysis? It takes a lot more than a 990 to prove a vast left-wing-only-but-still-establishment-corporatist-liberal-communist conspiracy.

If there isn't even ONE public analyst that is mostly on the same page as you on broad topics, maybe I am not the one who is "predisposed to reject" certain ideas.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:45 pm

It's one thing to question the source of a thesis of you have a bona fide reason for believing it to be wrong. It's another when it becomes a habitual way of responding to an argument with which you do not agree and when its purpose is to wear down an opponent rather than to promote legitimate argument.

Why are you so resistant to going and looking at the 990s for yourself? They're a public record.
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