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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:36 am
by dualstow
Desert wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:06 am
Regarding McCain, I just saw this article this morning. It's pretty good.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... st/568582/
Tsk, tsk, Desert. Isn't that a little mainstream? You have to find something in infowars for it to be the truth. /s
Well, I'm getting on a train, and I say that lest anyone think I'm leaving in a huff; I'm not. O0

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:42 am
by clacy
A new NAFTA deal with Mexico will be announced this week. That's very exciting.

Renegotiated and more favorable to the US. It's weird to me how easy that was to do, and I wonder why our previous Presidents didn't even try?

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:20 am
by Desert
Cortopassi wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:03 pm
Would I vote for a pimp and three hookers who could put the country back on track? No. Some level of morality and decency has to be part of the job.
It's important to remember that it's hard out here for a pimp. Whole lotta withches jumpin' ship.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:28 am
by Desert
clacy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:42 am
A new NAFTA deal with Mexico will be announced this week. That's very exciting.

Renegotiated and more favorable to the US. It's weird to me how easy that was to do, and I wonder why our previous Presidents didn't even try?
I do like some things about the proposed new NAFTA deal. It appears to support a $16 min wage for at least some mfg workers in the U.S. Unfortunately, the result of it all won't be known for years. The deal as I understand is essentially more protectionist, so if the free-traders are right, it'll generally be negative for the economy. Trade is obviously very complex, and I don't claim to understand the entire deal yet.

I do think Trump's motivations are good in this effort. Unfortunately, he's not a very complex thinker, so I doubt he's spent much time thinking about potential unintended consequences.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:57 am
by stuper1
Maddy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:31 am
Did you ever think you'd see a time when the repeal of the First Amendment was being seriously debated? That a small conglomerate of media and tech companies would be effectively controlling the content of public speech? That peaceful conservative speech would be routinely quelled by the threat of political persecution and by frequently-acted-out threats of violence? That candidates for public office would be subjected to searching intrusions of such a personal and invasive nature that only those in control of the political extortion apparatus would dare run? That a sitting congresswoman could seriously boast of a national database so powerful as to virtually guarantee the Elite's stranglehold over future elections? That dissenting voices on issues that matter can expect their friends to be charged with crimes and their attorneys' offices to be searched? That an unelected, unaccountable, fourth branch of government would eclipse all others, and that it would become so powerful as to be effectively beyond the executive's control?

The game has changed. If you want character in your life, find it in your family, your friends, your church. This is a fight for the constitutional republic, and the other side is no longer playing by any rules. Thankfully, conservatives are beginning to understand that.
Maddy says that if you want character in your life, find it in your family, your friends, your church. These are very wise words, and that was my point about McCain. I really have no idea whether he was a good guy or not (frankly, my hunch is that he wasn't, but that's just my hunch). I can find plenty of people on the internet who say he was great, and I can find some who say he was awful. Which group is telling the truth? I really have no way of knowing. I suppose I could spend weeks reading everything available on the internet and try to weigh it all up, but I doubt that would really work. Just because 90% of the people say one thing doesn't make it true. A lot of the stuff that people say is just repeating stuff that they heard somebody else say.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:13 pm
by stuper1
And now the US media moguls are only too happy to report that some Russian paper (probably very obscure and irrelevant) wishes for McCain to burn in hell. Of course, the US media should use his death to try to create more friction between the US and Russia, since that seemed to be the sort of thing that McCain lived for. So, who could blame the Russians if they did wish him to burn in hell? Heck, if I believed that was how things worked, I might wish that upon him for all of the carnage he wrought upon this planet. And yet for all of his talk about defending the US, he did little or nothing to strengthen our extremely porous border.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:17 pm
by Cortopassi

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:33 pm
by moda0306
Maddy I really don't know where you are your getting your information from because I have a very different interpretation of reality.

I think you've said that you were a fan of Alan Derschowitz. I've found his arguments to be hardly much more convincing than many Trump detractors... is there anyone else you'd recommend following that has helped most-color your opinion on this stuff?

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:32 pm
by tim47
Back to Desert, I do not think Trump has any clue re unintended consequences. Really, there is little thinking here re the deep consequences of his executive actions. He has a pretty long history of simply filing for bankruptcy when things do not go his way. Just not a useful tool as the president, and he still tries in he’s own way...and yes, he still has useful instincts in our economic environment...

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:55 pm
by moda0306
Maddy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:36 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:33 pm
Maddy I really don't know where you are your getting your information from because I have a very different interpretation of reality.

I think you've said that you were a fan of Alan Derschowitz. I've found his arguments to be hardly much more convincing than many Trump detractors... is there anyone else you'd recommend following that has helped most-color your opinion on this stuff?

There really isn't anybody that I follow closely; as far as news I probably read much the same stuff as you do. However, I've never completely given up the legal analysis gig, nor my tangential involvement in cases. Being able to watch how the law is evolving and how the law is being distorted in service of a singular political agenda gives you a view that isn't tarnished by anybody's spin.

You might have misunderstood my comment about Alan Derschowitz. I wouldn't call myself a "fan" of his, but since law school days he was well known as a constitutional scholar, a staunch defender of individual liberties, and very much the darling of the Left. So when Derschowitz finds himself opposed to "his own" on just about all the issues that matter, you can pretty well bet that the latter has taken a seriously wrong turn.
Well maybe Derschowitz is just... wrong? I know a lot of leftists that can't stand the guy... and that was well-before Trump.

But even so it sounds like he's hardly a pillar of your opinions.

If you think that the "law is evolving & being distorted in service of a singular political agenda," and it seems like you think it's a "leftist" agenda, how can you align that with your assertion that it's also beholden to international corporate profiteering.

To me, "leftists" and international corporate interests are at odds, unless you're focusing on "corporate democrats" like Hillary, but now we're not really talking about hard leftists any more but establishment corporate boobs.

Let me know where you think I have either you or things pegged incorrectly here.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:08 pm
by Kbg
McCain was a complex guy and like most humans who have lived he had his high points and low points. I think with any human life we should celebrate a person's good while not necessarily giving them a pass on the bad.

High points
- Courage, honor and grit as a POW
- Bipartisanship...standing up for a more civil political discourse

Low points
- First marriage/infidelity
- He could be very mean/vindictive when he wanted to be

I think at the end of the day he loved his country and called things as he saw them.

I also think it is pretty clear folks are putting more weights on the good side of the scale than the negative side...and I think that's about right.

Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:10 pm
by clacy
Kbg wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:08 pm
McCain was a complex guy and like most humans who have lived he had his high points and low points. I think with any human life we should celebrate a person's good while not necessarily giving them a pass on the bad.

High points
- Courage, honor and grit as a POW
- Bipartisanship...standing up for a more civil political discourse

Low points
- First marriage/infidelity
- He could be very mean/vindictive when he wanted to be

I think at the end of the day he loved his country and called things as he saw them.

I also think it is pretty clear folks are putting more weights on the good side of the scale than the negative side...and I think that's about right.


He was also a Geo-political Hawk/Neo-Con of the highest order. Off the top of my head, he was a major force in speaking in favor of invading:

Afghanistan
Iraq
Syria
Libya

He also advocated for involvement with (including supporting rebel and military factions) in:

Bosnia
Georgia
Ukraine
Kosovo
Nigeria
Iran

The guy has a lot of blood on his hands ala Bush/Cheney/Hillary. Hopefully he did it for the right reasons, but either way, they royally f*cked up an entire section of the world.

He seemed almost blood thirsty and would play the "don't question my motives, I'm a POW" card whenever someone opposed his worldview.