Trump as tragicomedy

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Xan
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 am

pugchief wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:49 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:43 am


Insurance is useful in case we get cancer or something and rack up millions of dollars in bills. Other than that, self-pay is much better all the way around. I really don't know why they killed catastrophic insurance: it's the only useful kind.
Probably because most people aren't members of this forum or MMM or whatever. You and I could self-insure a minor hospital surgical procedure or colonoscopy, but none of my employees, their friends, or family members could.
Even if their insurance premiums were greatly reduced?

Maybe that's the part I'm missing: these people all have insurance provided by their employer, and I never have. Having employers provide insurance is one of the worst all-round parts of this whole mess.
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ochotona
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:04 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 am
Maybe that's the part I'm missing: these people all have insurance provided by their employer, and I never have. Having employers provide insurance is one of the worst all-round parts of this whole mess.
Agreed. It was a WW-2 era kluge that turned into a system, and you can tell it's screwed-up by looking at the outputs. More spend per capita by a factor of two over other developed nations, and worse outcomes. But the entrenched rent-seeking participants don't want change.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:07 pm

pugchief wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:49 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:43 am


Insurance is useful in case we get cancer or something and rack up millions of dollars in bills. Other than that, self-pay is much better all the way around. I really don't know why they killed catastrophic insurance: it's the only useful kind.
Probably because most people aren't members of this forum or MMM or whatever. You and I could self-insure a minor hospital surgical procedure or colonoscopy, but none of my employees, their friends, or family members could.
I feel like the surgical procedures are the things you SHOULD want to insure, and insurance companies would be equipped to handle. It's the things that you know you're gonna need/need RIGHT NOW (colonoscopies, birth control, diabetes medicine) that don't really need to be bought through insurance.

I mean, if we applied some actuarial science to health insurance, I'm guessing they'll find out that there's pretty much a 100% chance that a diabetic needs insulin, and that a 50 year old is going to get a colonoscopy. And if an insurance company wouldn't give you fire insurance if there was a 100% chance they'd have to pay out for it, why would a health insurance company? If someone came to an insurance company with a pre-existing condition like diabetes, why shouldn't either a) they pay for their own insulin, or b) they pay a higher premium to cover it, amounting to the same thing?
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pugchief
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by pugchief » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:27 pm

The dissonance comes in because they call it insurance. It's kind of similar to insurance in that there are premiums, claims, and payouts, but you are correct, it is not insurance in the sense that risk of use is relatively low and only covers 'major loss' like with homeowner's or even automobile.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm

Not insurance... but we need human life cycle health care financing for women and men coupled with highly competitive reverse auction features! Call it what you want, that is what we need
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:19 pm

ochotona wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm
Not insurance... but we need human life cycle health care financing for women and men coupled with highly competitive reverse auction features! Call it what you want, that is what we need
Like, unlimited financing? Do we keep throwing money at people until the end of their life cycle, or do we need death panels to let us know when to stop throwing good money after bad. How much is a human life worth, anyway, and are they all worth the same?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:35 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:19 pm
ochotona wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm
Not insurance... but we need human life cycle health care financing for women and men coupled with highly competitive reverse auction features! Call it what you want, that is what we need
Like, unlimited financing? Do we keep throwing money at people until the end of their life cycle, or do we need death panels to let us know when to stop throwing good money after bad. How much is a human life worth, anyway, and are they all worth the same?
Also, why do we not have this financing for, say, food? Housing? Why not everything!
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:35 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:35 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:19 pm
ochotona wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:50 pm
Not insurance... but we need human life cycle health care financing for women and men coupled with highly competitive reverse auction features! Call it what you want, that is what we need
Like, unlimited financing? Do we keep throwing money at people until the end of their life cycle, or do we need death panels to let us know when to stop throwing good money after bad. How much is a human life worth, anyway, and are they all worth the same?
Also, why do we not have this financing for, say, food? Housing? Why not everything!
Why not food, basic housing & healthcare?

Like really why not?

Maybe they should be subsidized or guaranteed? Our government facilitated the genocidal capture of 2.3 billion acres of land and resources to basically be given to a relative few for them to market to others. It's not outside the realm of reason to suggest a basic floor on human dignity and survival as a sort of "citizen's dividend."

Although I agree with you that liberals should get more comfortable asking the questions about where the limits stop on government healthcare. Seems to me many other countries have found a decent balance.

I'd prefer similar benefit levels but perhaps less of a patchwork system. A 65+ senior has a lot of healthcare protection compared to a pre-Obamacare 60-year-old. I think there are ways we could level out benefits a bit.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by boglerdude » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:52 am

I hear a lot of trash talked about the NHS, but they seem to take very good care of alcoholics. As in the documentary, Louis Theroux: Drinking To Oblivion
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Desert » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:57 am

pugchief wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:36 am
Desert wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 am
I'm not crazy about the ACA either, but it's irresponsible to simply kill it without any substitute in mind. I think it's time to end the private health insurance system in our country and go to single payer. The present system with insurance companies and government both involved brings the worst of both worlds, unfortunately. But as long as insurance companies are raking in the profits, it will be politically difficult to change the system.
You want to give the government more control over health care?! Because they've proven in the past how everything they do becomes less expensive and more efficient? There has to be a better way than the current, but I'm pretty sure making the govt the CEO is not the answer. If you don't believe me, ask one of our Canadian members.
I'm not excited about it, but I think single payer healthcare is the only practical option. I don't like government control of the military budget either, but there isn't another practical way to manage something so massive. If there is some practical private option available, I'd change my mind immediately, however.

Regarding Canada, I think their system is far superior to ours, just looking at outcomes and spending per person.
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pugchief
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by pugchief » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:52 am

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:57 am
pugchief wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:36 am
Desert wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 am
I'm not crazy about the ACA either, but it's irresponsible to simply kill it without any substitute in mind. I think it's time to end the private health insurance system in our country and go to single payer. The present system with insurance companies and government both involved brings the worst of both worlds, unfortunately. But as long as insurance companies are raking in the profits, it will be politically difficult to change the system.
You want to give the government more control over health care?! Because they've proven in the past how everything they do becomes less expensive and more efficient? There has to be a better way than the current, but I'm pretty sure making the govt the CEO is not the answer. If you don't believe me, ask one of our Canadian members.
I'm not excited about it, but I think single payer healthcare is the only practical option. I don't like government control of the military budget either, but there isn't another practical way to manage something so massive. If there is some practical private option available, I'd change my mind immediately, however.

Regarding Canada, I think their system is far superior to ours, just looking at outcomes and spending per person.
Outcomes and per capita spending is only one measure. What about the people who are diagnosed with X, and have to wait 2 years to see a specialist. Apparently somewhat common in Canada. So are you willing to have that scenario in the event you or a family member gets X?

Be careful what you wish for.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:14 am

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:35 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:35 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:19 pm


Like, unlimited financing? Do we keep throwing money at people until the end of their life cycle, or do we need death panels to let us know when to stop throwing good money after bad. How much is a human life worth, anyway, and are they all worth the same?
Also, why do we not have this financing for, say, food? Housing? Why not everything!
Why not food, basic housing & healthcare?

Like really why not?

Maybe they should be subsidized or guaranteed?
We can't even pay for the stuff government does now.

Although, I could probably agree we could do something like that, if Americans were willing to accept a standard of living much lower than the current one.
Our government facilitated the genocidal capture of 2.3 billion acres of land and resources to basically be given to a relative few for them to market to others. It's not outside the realm of reason to suggest a basic floor on human dignity and survival as a sort of "citizen's dividend."
What is your point?
Although I agree with you that liberals should get more comfortable asking the questions about where the limits stop on government healthcare. Seems to me many other countries have found a decent balance.
I think Megan McArdle has done a good job showing that other countries with socialized medicine aren't doing that great and are running into problems, or will shortly. Government-run healthcare is such a recent phenomenon that skepticism is prudent.
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