Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.
For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.
Hard to tell given your moving goal posts, but if your assertion is that Trump is a better orator than Obama, I think you're pretty objectively incorrect.
That said, if we're going to talk about "overrated" orators as president, rather than if they're just incoherent nincompoops like Trump, nobody takes the cake like Reagan.
I'd rather have a tooth pulled than listen to a whole speech by any president or politician and that includes Trump.
But my opinion from the soundbites is that Trump actually speaks somewhat like an ordinary person which I find refreshing.
Obama just spoke political gobbledygook and pablum and I always thought of him as the quintessential empty suit just mouthing nonsense to sound smart. Plus he was very condescending.
Agreed to some extent. Again, it might be the bias of the media I am currently consuming, but Trump seems to be a very negative, put down kind of guy, vs. lift up. I've had both kinds of managers in my career and it's pretty easy for me to choose the type I like to work for.
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I go back to my George W. comments. Of all the recent presidents I would most like to have a beer with, it'd be Carter and George W. They might have made a lot of mistakes but both seem genuine.
dualstow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:10 am
No comments about Trump wanting to pull out of Syria soon? I feel bad for the Kurds, but some here must be happy.
I want us to pull out of every morass we are currently in.
This is a good start, but only a start.
What would be your first choice as the next step (next pullout)?
I read Bob Woodward's book Fear, and assuming his sources and details are accurate, I am quite amazed how grown men, some of them prior generals in the military have difficulty dealing with the way Trump operates, esp. coming from a regimented command structure. They are deferential mainly, because they are respecting the chain of command. But sometimes they slow walk things or have to work around to an idea or concept that makes Trump think he's come up with it.
It's a little scary that for the most part what the president says, Trump or otherwise, is generally the edict and everyone tries to execute on it without much pushback, esp. after he's berated you a few times.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:16 am
I read Bob Woodward's book Fear, and assuming his sources and details are accurate...
It might be worth reading some critical reviews of Fear and Woodward's other books for additional input, if you haven't already.
I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.
On the way Trump operates -- I have had 13 different jobs in almost 30 years of working. I have worked at companies where the owner/CEO/manager was a tyrant, a bigot, a narcissist, a back stabber, and a few where they were genuinely good people and motivators. Sure you can lead with a stick, but I have always performed my best when I had respect for my manager and/or the CEO vs. hating/fearing them.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:16 am
I read Bob Woodward's book Fear, and assuming his sources and details are accurate...
It might be worth reading some critical reviews of Fear and Woodward's other books for additional input, if you haven't already.
I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.
On the way Trump operates -- I have had 13 different jobs in almost 30 years of working. I have worked at companies where the owner/CEO/manager was a tyrant, a bigot, a narcissist, a back stabber, and a few where they were genuinely good people and motivators. Sure you can lead with a stick, but I have always performed my best when I had respect for my manager and/or the CEO vs. hating/fearing them.
From what you know, has Trump generally been a success or a failure as a businessman? Sure, he had a headstart by being born into a rich family. But a lot of people had a headstart like that and ended up with a lot less money than when they started. How much ahead of where he started is Trump versus yourself? I know he's far ahead of me. If you conclude that he's fairly successful as a businessman, do you think he achieved that by being a tyrant or by being a good boss? Do you ever wonder if the media might just have some sort of hidden agenda for wanting us all to think that he's just a tyrant?
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:16 am
I read Bob Woodward's book Fear, and assuming his sources and details are accurate...
It might be worth reading some critical reviews of Fear and Woodward's other books for additional input, if you haven't already.
I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.
Things I've read about Woodward's accuracy and general approach in his books combined with your use of the word "assume" and now "imagine" are what raised red flags for me. I don't have any first-hand knowledge to confirm or deny any of the rest.
It might be worth reading some critical reviews of Fear and Woodward's other books for additional input, if you haven't already.
I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.
On the way Trump operates -- I have had 13 different jobs in almost 30 years of working. I have worked at companies where the owner/CEO/manager was a tyrant, a bigot, a narcissist, a back stabber, and a few where they were genuinely good people and motivators. Sure you can lead with a stick, but I have always performed my best when I had respect for my manager and/or the CEO vs. hating/fearing them.
From what you know, has Trump generally been a success or a failure as a businessman? Sure, he had a headstart by being born into a rich family. But a lot of people had a headstart like that and ended up with a lot less money than when they started. How much ahead of where he started is Trump versus yourself? I know he's far ahead of me. If you conclude that he's fairly successful as a businessman, do you think he achieved that by being a tyrant or by being a good boss? Do you ever wonder if the media might just have some sort of hidden agenda for wanting us all to think that he's just a tyrant?
Are they writing his tweets for him? Sure seems like a tyrant to me, without any help from the media. Do I have to clip some tweets in this post?
Sure, he's more successful in business, and he can go to his deathbed thinking about all the money he's made and the women he's bedded. That's not the stuff I'd be looking to reminisce on, on my deathbed.
All I can say is I would not function well in the environment that he seems to create around him.
I will. And I assume it will dispute a lot of the accounts. The problem is, you can easily imagine that's the state of the White House given how he acts in public and on Twitter.
On the way Trump operates -- I have had 13 different jobs in almost 30 years of working. I have worked at companies where the owner/CEO/manager was a tyrant, a bigot, a narcissist, a back stabber, and a few where they were genuinely good people and motivators. Sure you can lead with a stick, but I have always performed my best when I had respect for my manager and/or the CEO vs. hating/fearing them.
From what you know, has Trump generally been a success or a failure as a businessman? Sure, he had a headstart by being born into a rich family. But a lot of people had a headstart like that and ended up with a lot less money than when they started. How much ahead of where he started is Trump versus yourself? I know he's far ahead of me. If you conclude that he's fairly successful as a businessman, do you think he achieved that by being a tyrant or by being a good boss? Do you ever wonder if the media might just have some sort of hidden agenda for wanting us all to think that he's just a tyrant?
Are they writing his tweets for him? Sure seems like a tyrant to me, without any help from the media. Do I have to clip some tweets in this post?
Sure, he's more successful in business, and he can go to his deathbed thinking about all the money he's made and the women he's bedded. That's not the stuff I'd be looking to reminisce on, on my deathbed.
All I can say is I would not function well in the environment that he seems to create around him.
And what I'm saying is that I really doubt that the environment he actually creates around him is much like what the media wants us to think it is. If it was how the media paints it, I seriously doubt he would be a successful businessman.
Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.
Just imagine if he spent a few days tweeting crap about medical monopolies and it's time to break them up and reduce costs.
I'll hand it to him currently, getting out of Syria seems to have pissed a lot of people off, but I agree with that.
He has such a grasp of tweeting to incite and cause people to love him or have their heads explode that I wish it was put to better use.
If the environment is not as the media portrays, why do you have Cohen's comments, Tillerson's comments, Mattis with his letter, his berating of Sessions and such happening?
If he stopped the tweeting, 75% of the negative news bias goes away. Nearly every story in recent memory, negative on Trump, always starts with a "And this is what President Trump tweeted early this morning...."
stuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:14 pm
If it was how the media paints it, I seriously doubt he would be a successful businessman.
I'm also starting to think that my hope that this would be the saving grace, that he has business experience, would be great. I think it serves him poorly because while he may be a great businessman, he was the lone top guy, and everyone worked for him. Government doesn't work that way and he seems to want it to, which is a large part of the dislike of Trump IMO. Screw you we're doing it my way might work when you're the CEO, but usually not when the president.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.
Just imagine if Twitter didn't exist. How would anyone know what he actually thinks, as the media twists and spins everything?
That is exactly correct.
I think this is why we tend to have a much more positive view of Presidents in the era before mass media started focusing so much on minutiae and sensationalism. If JFK or FDR were Presidents today, I wonder how they would be portrayed? Both had extramarital affairs while in the White House, for instance.
As for Trump's White House dysfunction problem...like Cortopassi, I had also hoped that his business experience would serve him well. Not so much unfortunately. But, it's not always the case that following conventional wisdom on every issue is the best way to govern. The most respected figures are the ones who stuck to their principles and made unpopular decisions. Sometimes that doesn't work out well, but it can also succeed spectacularly. And on balance, I prefer that sort of person to the slave to conventional wisdom type. In short, I want the country run by its government, not according to the dictates of CNN and the like.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.
Just imagine if Twitter didn't exist. How would anyone know what he actually thinks, as the media twists and spins everything?
That is exactly correct.
How does anyone know what he really thinks even with his voluminous Twitter habits? I think his Tweets are closer to being theater than reality, whatever reality really is in his mind. And, in the big scheme of things it matters little what he thinks, only what he does matters - e.g. somehow get bipartisan agreement to revise the criminal justice system as his latest success story. But, on the downside, that revision will have unintended consequences just like the last revision proved to have.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.
Just imagine if Twitter didn't exist. How would anyone know what he actually thinks, as the media twists and spins everything?
Saying that Mattis “retired.” That’s spin. That’s like, spinissimo.
WiseOne wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:32 am
The most respected figures are the ones who stuck to their principles and made unpopular decisions. Sometimes that doesn't work out well, but it can also succeed spectacularly. And on balance, I prefer that sort of person to the slave to conventional wisdom type. In short, I want the country run by its government, not according to the dictates of CNN and the like.
I'm getting the impression that Trump has come to the realization that he has to actually do the things he campaigned on if he is to win again in 2020. Basically - build the wall, bring the troops home, drain the swamp.
Could get very interesting. Sometimes I also get the impression that the only people supporting him are the voters. Must be a very lonely job.
WiseOne wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:32 am
The most respected figures are the ones who stuck to their principles and made unpopular decisions. Sometimes that doesn't work out well, but it can also succeed spectacularly. And on balance, I prefer that sort of person to the slave to conventional wisdom type. In short, I want the country run by its government, not according to the dictates of CNN and the like.
Agreed.
Of course, not to imply that Trump will ever be respected, principles or no. Just doesn't seem to be in the cards for him
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Then what are the tweets meant to do, seriously, other than piss off approximately 50% of the nation and endear him to his base? There is no attempt to unify. There seems to be little attempt to reach bipartisan agreements. Not all Trump, for sure, but he exacerbates it.
Just imagine if Twitter didn't exist. How would anyone know what he actually thinks, as the media twists and spins everything?
That and the somewhat pertinent fact that he can barely speak on any topic coherently, and usually contradicts himself within a week of making a statement about any of the following:
- Foreign policy
- National Debt
- Interest Rates
- Tax Cut priorities
- The electoral college
- Stock market performance
- Every
- Other
- Topic
- Besides Trade and Immigration... and only sort of on those.
Yeah, the media twists things. But it doesn't take the media to make him look like an ignoramus. He does that by simply speaking.
That said I'm happy to see the wars ending and the criminal justice reform bill that was passed. I thought when the market tanked he'd be cranking up wars... not winding them down. Kudos to him for that.
Boeing executive without military experience as Defense Secretary. We can see where this is going. Endless war, principally from the air. Someday this little squire will be CEO of Boeing or Lockheed Martin.
The swamp is draining... right into the Oval Office!
Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:29 pm
Thanks. As for being gaga for Trump, he wasn't my first choice of the 19 candidates in 2016. That would be Rand Paul.
moda0306 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:55 pm
I thought when the market tanked he'd be cranking up wars... not winding them down. Kudos to him for that.
"My friend Lindsay Graham is a bit mad right now. You see, he’s never seen a war end before. He’s going to have to console himself with the fact that we still are in about 8 more. I have to tell you; I haven’t seen a Senator who loves war this much since the Star Wars Prequels,"
- Rand Paul airing his Festivus grievances
