Trump as tragicomedy

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:59 pm
No, Moda, as I said before, I'm just not interested in engaging you. You've done this "Show me your sources" routine so many times that by now the script has become predictable. No matter what my source, you'll find some reason for rejecting it, and when confronted with evidence you cannot deny, you'll simply move to a new and different reason for deprecating the thesis. And I'll have wasted precious hours throwing evidence at you that you're predisposed to reject. Yesterday, your comeback was that the connection between Soros and Antifa is solely in the imagination of Alex Jones. If I showed you the 990 from AGJ or OSI, you'd simply come up with some other reason to reject my point. Maybe it would be that the relationship between Soros and AGJ is too attenuated, or that a handful of Republicans have provided funding to similar organizations, or that Antifa is not representative of the Left. I'm just not interested in going through this again. You've simply lost your credibility with me at this point.
Maddy,

The reason I repeat my "show me some sources" routine is that 1) you've barely provided any, 2) the few you have are weak or mixed-at-best, 3) none of them supported your new arguments about Soros' supporting too-far-leftish groups, and 4) even if he does or your other sources are correct about a few points, it doesn't deductively follow that there's a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Your "arguments" are just a bunch of anti-leftist question-begging. I'm trying to hand you a damn olive branch here and allow you to support your claims rather than looking like hotbed of right-wing conspiracy theories.

There's gotta be someone out there that writes articles that support the same arguments you would, right? Anyone? Any journalist or commentator that doesn't mind posting sources in their articles or takes a deeper dive into the issues? Give us ONE NAME and I'll do the digging for the 90% of us that aren't already wallowing in your fact-patterns & analysis? It takes a lot more than a 990 to prove a vast left-wing-only-but-still-establishment-corporatist-liberal-communist conspiracy.

If there isn't even ONE public analyst that is mostly on the same page as you on broad topics, maybe I am not the one who is "predisposed to reject" certain ideas.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:45 pm

It's one thing to question the source of a thesis of you have a bona fide reason for believing it to be wrong. It's another when it becomes a habitual way of responding to an argument with which you do not agree and when its purpose is to wear down an opponent rather than to promote legitimate argument.

Why are you so resistant to going and looking at the 990s for yourself? They're a public record.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:00 pm

Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:45 pm
It's one thing to question the source of a thesis of you have a bona fide reason for believing it to be wrong. It's another when it becomes a habitual way of responding to an argument with which you do not agree and when its purpose is to wear down an opponent rather than to promote legitimate argument.

Why are you so resistant to going and looking at the 990s for yourself? They're a public record.
Maddy,

You are presupposing that my wanting to see sources is to wear down an opponent. It's to do one of two things...

1) Acquire new information or analysis that can help me understand a topic

-or-

2) Confirm for myself and other onlookers that someone doesn't know what they are talking about and isn't worth wasting MY/OUR time considering their posts.

If you are are in-fact grossly under-informed or afraid to share who you follow, I don't particularly care if you feel like you have to waste YOUR time, as you've just wasted OURS by posting sourceless drivel. If you have sources, it shouldn't be a huge waste of time.

For example, I have strong opinions on foreign policy and civil libertarianism...I could easily give you 5 people right off the bat that I'd recommend following on those topics. Just like I EASILY posted sources for all the MR/MMT monetary system debates we had back in the day. The reading wasn't easy, but the sharing was.

Even if I find 990's (I think I found access to a couple yesterday before having to get some work done), I still have to research the organizations. And even if I come to the conclusions that the organizations give to liberal causes, I have to find if there are some hard-leftist causes. And if there are, I then have to somehow weave that into a narrative that you generally claim which goes WAAAY beyond Soros and into establishment political power in the U.S. and somehow only represents "the left," is simultaneously corporatist and hard-leftist in nature, parse out what the TRUE belivers of this cause want vs the "useful idiots." I then also have to somehow find out that conservatives are generally benevolent and in-fact almost devoid of power compared to "the left," which seems to conflict with much of what I currently know.

Only then can I come even close to arriving at some of the conclusions you arrive at.

And keep in mind I have to do this without descending into conspiracy theorist websites and sources that are completely full of it.

Please give us a shortcut if there is ANYONE out there in media or public commentary that dives into this stuff and comes out with the same conclusions you do about "the left," international corporatism as a sub-set thereof, generally and historically benevolent conservatism, etc. There either has to be someone you can name for us to read/view their content, or you're telling us that you're alone on this topic as far as you can tell.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:06 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm
It takes a lot more than a 990 to prove a vast left-wing-only-but-still-establishment-corporatist-liberal-communist conspiracy.
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You initially took exception to my point that there was a connection between George Soros and Antifa. I point to the 990s--a primary source about which there can be no dispute--and you've immediately switched to another objection. Because you know you can't deny what's plain to see in those documents, you're now simply ignoring that point and are arguing that 990s don't prove a "vast left-wing-only-but-still-establishment-corporatist-liberal-communist-conspiracy." This is such a great example of what I just called you out on that I couldn't let it go.
If there isn't even ONE public analyst that is mostly on the same page as you on broad topics, maybe I am not the one who is "predisposed to reject" certain ideas.
I have no idea if there's a commentator who agrees with me. It's not at all important to me, though you seem to be quite hung up on the idea that "my commentator can beat up your commentator." Again, why don't you look at the documents and analyze them for yourself?
Last edited by Maddy on Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:16 pm

Maddy,

If you haven't been able to find one journalist, author (or commentator, or whatever) that believes what you believe about the state of things, then at least link us to these supposed "documents" that have helped you build your worldview. Or what do you google to find these "documents." What kind of "documents?"

The reason I ask for this is often journalists or authors provide SOURCES that I don't have to scour for blindly.

Lastly, if you can't find the former, and won't provide links to the latter, can you blame folks for not coming to the same conclusions you are coming to?

I'm dumbfounded that you can't even name an author who's written a book laying out major aspects of your argument, with all the sources and detail that one might want to start making such grand claims about the nature of reality and change in society.


You are the one who made the point about Soros, claiming that, "When you realize that the Antifa brick-throwers are being financed by the likes of George Soros, the connection becomes obvious."

There is no connection between Soros (one man) and any left-wing movement that could "make obvious" the connection you make between all aspects of the left as a unique and monolithic threat to "good conservatives." So you started by making this vast connection, not me.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:27 pm

I am perceiving Maddy spends more time in her circle of influence and moda spends more time in his circle of concern. (See Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People for details.). I may be wrong.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:27 pm
I am perceiving Maddy spends more time in her circle of influence and moda spends more time in his circle of concern. (See Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People for details.). I may be wrong.
Covey's circle of influence lies within the circle of concern. The point to an "effective" life is to keep the former as big of a piece of the latter as possible.

Since both Maddy and I are discuss world politics topics, and trying to explain to each other our motivations, neither of us are spending much time in our circles of influence at the moment.

Guess we both aren't Highly Effective People...

Oh well...
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:31 pm

Anyone else see the parallels among:
Mess in the Roman Catholic Church,
Mess in the entrenched establishment politicians,
Mess in the biased media,
Mess in Hollywood knowing believing they know what is best for the peons,
Mess in the big tech moguls controlling information,
Mess in feeding triabalism?
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:36 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:27 pm
I am perceiving Maddy spends more time in her circle of influence and moda spends more time in his circle of concern. (See Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People for details.). I may be wrong.
Covey's circle of influence lies within the circle of concern. The point to an "effective" life is to keep the former as big of a piece of the latter as possible.

Since both Maddy and I are discuss world politics topics, and trying to explain to each other our motivations, neither of us are spending much time in our circles of influence at the moment.

Guess we both aren't Highly Effective People...

Oh well...
I guess you assumed that I said the circles were not concentric. Interesting indeed how we read our presuppositions into what is not said. We have an inate desire to fill white space with our views. ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:48 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:36 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:27 pm
I am perceiving Maddy spends more time in her circle of influence and moda spends more time in his circle of concern. (See Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People for details.). I may be wrong.
Covey's circle of influence lies within the circle of concern. The point to an "effective" life is to keep the former as big of a piece of the latter as possible.

Since both Maddy and I are discuss world politics topics, and trying to explain to each other our motivations, neither of us are spending much time in our circles of influence at the moment.

Guess we both aren't Highly Effective People...

Oh well...
I guess you assumed that I said the circles were not concentric. Interesting indeed how we read our presuppositions into what is not said. We have an inate desire to fill white space with our views. ;D
I didn't assume anything. You can't spend more time in one circle than another outer circle that completely engulfs it. Your phrasing presupposes that the circles can't be concentric. :)

And more to the point is that Maddy (nor myself) is in-fact not at all focusing on her circle of influence... nor is anyone when they're debating global politics or political sources on a discussion forum.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:31 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:48 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:36 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:21 pm


Covey's circle of influence lies within the circle of concern. The point to an "effective" life is to keep the former as big of a piece of the latter as possible.

Since both Maddy and I are discuss world politics topics, and trying to explain to each other our motivations, neither of us are spending much time in our circles of influence at the moment.

Guess we both aren't Highly Effective People...

Oh well...
I guess you assumed that I said the circles were not concentric. Interesting indeed how we read our presuppositions into what is not said. We have an inate desire to fill white space with our views. ;D
I didn't assume anything. You can't spend more time in one circle than another outer circle that completely engulfs it. Your phrasing presupposes that the circles can't be concentric. :)

And more to the point is that Maddy (nor myself) is in-fact not at all focusing on her circle of influence... nor is anyone when they're debating global politics or political sources on a discussion forum.
I believe, potentially in error, you may be assuming two dimensional geometry and discounting time as a fourth dimension. ;)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:31 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:48 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:36 pm


I guess you assumed that I said the circles were not concentric. Interesting indeed how we read our presuppositions into what is not said. We have an inate desire to fill white space with our views. ;D
I didn't assume anything. You can't spend more time in one circle than another outer circle that completely engulfs it. Your phrasing presupposes that the circles can't be concentric. :)

And more to the point is that Maddy (nor myself) is in-fact not at all focusing on her circle of influence... nor is anyone when they're debating global politics or political sources on a discussion forum.
I believe, potentially in error, you may be assuming two dimensional geometry and discounting time as a fourth dimension. ;)
Maybe I'm just salty because every time I focus on my circle of influence, I influence too much beer and junk food into my belly and piss people off with my sense of humor.

Better to research and debate things online... less damage to be done! :)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:27 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:55 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:31 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:48 pm


I didn't assume anything. You can't spend more time in one circle than another outer circle that completely engulfs it. Your phrasing presupposes that the circles can't be concentric. :)

And more to the point is that Maddy (nor myself) is in-fact not at all focusing on her circle of influence... nor is anyone when they're debating global politics or political sources on a discussion forum.
I believe, potentially in error, you may be assuming two dimensional geometry and discounting time as a fourth dimension. ;)
Maybe I'm just salty because every time I focus on my circle of influence, I influence too much beer and junk food into my belly and piss people off with my sense of humor.

Better to research and debate things online... less damage to be done! :)
Nah, skip the research and debate; focus on beer and barbecued brisket with Desert - total health food. I’m dreaming of it as I write. ;D ;D ;D

PS. I’m waiting for you to comment on my parallels post in this thread. Perhaps after a few beers. :)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:36 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:27 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:55 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:31 pm


I believe, potentially in error, you may be assuming two dimensional geometry and discounting time as a fourth dimension. ;)
Maybe I'm just salty because every time I focus on my circle of influence, I influence too much beer and junk food into my belly and piss people off with my sense of humor.

Better to research and debate things online... less damage to be done! :)
Nah, skip the research and debate; focus on beer and barbecued brisket with Desert - total health food. I’m dreaming of it as I write. ;D ;D ;D

PS. I’m waiting for you to comment on my parallels post in this thread. Perhaps after a few beers. :)
Parallels... didn't we once decide here that "Groups Suck?" I think it fits your parallels piece.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:46 pm

I spent the afternoon taking care of business in a nearby small town which has been economically depressed for the entire time I've been here (almost 9 years now). All kinds of new businesses are springing up, as though somebody flipped a switch. And the "help wanted" signs, which have been nonexistent for as long as I can remember, seem to be everywhere. I have mixed feelings about all this change, but there's no doubt the policies of the present administration have been a godsend for a lot of lower to lower-middle class people in rural America. Which got me to thinking about this thread and about the charge that the present administration's tax and administrative reforms make Trump just another whore of the Elite, and I thought, "What difference does it make whether the 1% benefit incidentally from these changes? I think some people are so mired in jealousy and resentment that they'd sooner see the lower and middle classes go to ruin than allow the wealthy to flourish.

This is not to say that the widening gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" isn't a problem. But this administration has, perhaps for the first time in recent history, actually signaled an intent to do something about the monopolies and paramonopolies that, more than anything else, have fueled the wealth divide. I have to applaud this administration on both counts because the answer, it seems to me, is less government and more old-fashioned free enterprise, which is something we haven't seen in quite a while.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:58 pm

However, don't forget that there is no way that Trump will ever be able to negotiate effectively with Mexico after all the bad things he (supposedly) said about Mexicans during his campaign. Oh, wait a minute . . . did I just see that there was a new trade deal with Mexico as of this week? Maybe this Trump guy actually knows a little bit about negotiation after all.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by boglerdude » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:53 am

> All kinds of new businesses are springing up, as though somebody flipped a switch. And the "help wanted" signs, which have been nonexistent for as long as I can remember, seem to be everywhere.

So folks were sitting around twiddling their thumbs under Obama, unable to figure out how to make money....then Trump did what exactly
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:22 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:46 pm
I spent the afternoon taking care of business in a nearby small town which has been economically depressed for the entire time I've been here (almost 9 years now). All kinds of new businesses are springing up, as though somebody flipped a switch. And the "help wanted" signs, which have been nonexistent for as long as I can remember, seem to be everywhere. I have mixed feelings about all this change, but there's no doubt the policies of the present administration have been a godsend for a lot of lower to lower-middle class people in rural America. Which got me to thinking about this thread and about the charge that the present administration's tax and administrative reforms make Trump just another whore of the Elite, and I thought, "What difference does it make whether the 1% benefit incidentally from these changes? I think some people are so mired in jealousy and resentment that they'd sooner see the lower and middle classes go to ruin than allow the wealthy to flourish.

This is not to say that the widening gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" isn't a problem. But this administration has, perhaps for the first time in recent history, actually signaled an intent to do something about the monopolies and paramonopolies that, more than anything else, have fueled the wealth divide. I have to applaud this administration on both counts because the answer, it seems to me, is less government and more old-fashioned free enterprise, which is something we haven't seen in quite a while.
Do you mean actual firms?

I haven't heard Trump say anything about breaking up banks, global corporations, telecomms, etc. Did you mean something else? Renegotiating free trade, reducing taxes, and reducing regulations is hardly a signal to "do something" about monopolies... I'm assuming you're talking about something else...

One could make the argument that those policies are good for us, but that's a very different thing than breaking up monopolies.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:41 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:27 pm
Nah, skip the research and debate; focus on beer and barbecued brisket with Desert - total health food. I’m dreaming of it as I write. ;D ;D ;D


mmm, Brisket Summit.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:13 am

Desert wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:03 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:01 am
The Nation is the oldest continuously published weekly magazine in the United States, and the most widely read weekly journal of progressive political and cultural news, opinion, and analysis.

Godwin's Law rules! ;) It appears a goal of The Nation is to create heaven on earth via its articles. The bias against Trump (via not so subtle allusions to Hitler) is obvious in the linked article. The articles I looked at are not quite SJW on steroids but lean heavily that way in my opinion. Not to get too religious, but this is a case where the proper distinction of God's Law and God's Gospel is really helpful. Life is so much less stressful and more peaceful when we try to build each other and our government up rather than tear each other down.
I'm not sure where your "heaven on earth" narrative comes from. You've said things like that before, but I'm not sure what you mean by it. I'd like to suggest that perhaps not creating hell on earth, at the very least, would be a reasonable thing for Christians to support. In a previous post, I mentioned that Matthew 25 must be deleted from standard issue GOP Bibles these days. Yes, life is less stressful when we just go with the flow. If one happens to be born into the right economic class and race, and grow up within a decent family, it's not that hard to do. It's easy to go with the flow, to take the wide road. The good Samaritan chose to do otherwise. This week's meeting between Trump and a power-hungry crowd of Evangelical pastors was sickening. I'm reminded of Jesus trashing the money changers tables in the temple; perhaps he should have just been more peaceful, and supported those guys. It's usually hard to stand up for what's right, and to defend truth. And yes, I still believe in discernible truth, despite the current Orwellian effort to claim otherwise.

You highlighted that The Nation is a *progressive* publication, as if you were a cat that just caught a mouse. If you'd turn off Breitbart, Fox and the Federalist long enough to look at some history, you'd find that progressives have done much to improve our society and reduce the hell on earth that so many good religious folks supported. Indeed, it was the good, wealthy, right wing religious folks that Jesus spoke most strongly against.

In our form of government, it's our *duty* to speak truth to power, and to stand up for what's right. Our government works for us, not the other way around. And as the famous quote says, all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I'm not going to be that sort of person, no matter how many well-meaning religious folks would prefer that I was.
I don't have time for a complete response (have to go to doctor appointment, then drive my grandson back to Frederick) but in short, I agree with most of what you said and FWIW, I don't watch Fox, read Breitbart or the Federalist much, almost none; ditto CBS, NBC, ABC. Sometimes I watch the local news which tends to be only about 90% of the yuck factor national stuff. I think the much news in general is so biased, i.e. commentary and not news, as to be almost worthless. I try to focus on what I can control - other than doing research prior to voting there is not much I can do about corrupt politicians. I can focus on my family and friends and the beautiful sunny day; and dream of your brisket. O0
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:15 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:03 am
In our form of government, it's our *duty* to speak truth to power, and to stand up for what's right.
Would you care to elaborate for us on "what's right"? For example, our nation has laws on the books for a process that people are supposed to take if they want to immigrate here. I imagine that every other nation on earth has similar laws. Trump gets heavily criticized because he wants to enforce those laws. Is that not "right" to enforce laws that are on the books? If people would like to change the laws, then fine, get enough support together to pass a new law that says we will have open borders. But until that time, is it not the President's job and the "right" thing to do to enforce the laws that are on the books. Just because the establishment wants open borders so they can have cheap labor and a growing population of consumers doesn't make it "right".

Sure, I get it, Trump's a loudmouthed, crass, immoral buffoon. I readily admit that. I would much prefer a more dignified president. But that doesn't mean that Trump's policies are bogus. There is a reason he got elected in a fair election, at least as fair as any other American election, which may not be saying much.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:23 am

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:53 am
> All kinds of new businesses are springing up, as though somebody flipped a switch. And the "help wanted" signs, which have been nonexistent for as long as I can remember, seem to be everywhere.

So folks were sitting around twiddling their thumbs under Obama, unable to figure out how to make money....then Trump did what exactly
The majority were not twiddling their thumbs; they were driven out of the logging jobs that had sustained their families for decades due to cratering timber prices, excessive regulation, and the migration of timber companies (e.g., Weyerhaeuser) overseas. The year that the feds dumped a whole new set of responsibilities on employers for providing health insurance, a number of companies that had traditionally provided decent jobs for low and moderately-skilled laborers laid off workers in droves. For many years, the only reliable source of work was Walmart, which drove the last few independently-owned brick-and-mortar stores out of business--that is, what businesses were left after Amazon's monopoly got through with them.

Your characterization of rural America as "unable to figure out how to make money" is so far from reality I don't know what to say. If you said that around here, you'd probably get your head bashed in--most likely by somebody who was bucking bales by the age of 13 and whose body was trashed by the age of 35 from years of hard physical labor.
[T]hen Trump did what exactly?
Just one example out of this week's news:
On Thursday, President Trump issued a presidential memorandum that takes aim at a decades-old shipping agreement with a United Nations agency that gives some foreign countries, including China, a dramatically unfair advantage over American-based companies when it comes to shipping costs. The policy is costing American taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually and has made it extremely difficult for American companies to compete in the online marketplace.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/35132/wa ... benshapiro

That article hit home because it was just last night that a cattleman friend of mine was explaining that it is less costly to ship beef to the U.S. from Argentina than to ship it a few hundred miles to an adjacent state.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:06 am

Maddy wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:23 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:53 am
> All kinds of new businesses are springing up, as though somebody flipped a switch. And the "help wanted" signs, which have been nonexistent for as long as I can remember, seem to be everywhere.

So folks were sitting around twiddling their thumbs under Obama, unable to figure out how to make money....then Trump did what exactly
The majority were not twiddling their thumbs; they were driven out of the logging jobs that had sustained their families for decades due to cratering timber prices, excessive regulation, and the migration of timber companies (e.g., Weyerhaeuser) overseas. The year that the feds dumped a whole new set of responsibilities on employers for providing health insurance, a number of companies that had traditionally provided decent jobs for low and moderately-skilled laborers laid off workers in droves. For many years, the only reliable source of work was Walmart, which drove the last few independently-owned brick-and-mortar stores out of business--that is, what businesses were left after Amazon's monopoly got through with them.

Your characterization of rural America as "unable to figure out how to make money" is so far from reality I don't know what to say. If you said that around here, you'd probably get your head bashed in--most likely by somebody who was bucking bales by the age of 13 and whose body was trashed by the age of 35 from years of hard physical labor.
[T]hen Trump did what exactly?
Just one example out of this week's news:
On Thursday, President Trump issued a presidential memorandum that takes aim at a decades-old shipping agreement with a United Nations agency that gives some foreign countries, including China, a dramatically unfair advantage over American-based companies when it comes to shipping costs. The policy is costing American taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually and has made it extremely difficult for American companies to compete in the online marketplace.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/35132/wa ... benshapiro

That article hit home because it was just last night that a cattleman friend of mine was explaining that it is less costly to ship beef to the U.S. from Argentina than to ship it a few hundred miles to an adjacent state.
I'll give credit where it's due here. There could be some mitigating facts to this I'd be open to reading about, but it appears quite unfair, and I think it's a good thing Trump is taking action to eliminate this practice.

Now as to the connection between this practice and overall shipping costs, I have my doubts, but I have lots of doubts about all sorts of "Facts" posed by the left and right. Overall this is one good piece of evidence towards ONE move in the direction of better policy.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by boglerdude » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:13 am

^ post those accomplishments in this thread?

> The year that the feds dumped a whole new set of responsibilities on employers for providing health insurance, a number of companies that had traditionally provided decent jobs for low and moderately-skilled laborers laid off workers in droves.

Ok, good data point. Health care is a human right but maybe its better to have none, vs forcing employers to provide it. Its a gov responsibility.

Podcast on unfair shipping costs:
https://www.npr.org/2018/08/23/64114014 ... ping-rates

Unfair/protectionist shipping practices by the US: http://www.americanshippingco.com/s.cfm ... -Jones-Act
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:47 am

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:14 pm
Moda, there has been a ton of this progress going on since Trump took office. If you can get past the tweets, blustering and the media's constant attacks on him, there have been some HUGE things going on.
Not to be a broken record, but I find most pro-trump sources to be ridiculous partisan garbage, so could you give me some sources to follow you've found reliable?
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