Trump as tragicomedy

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I Shrugged
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:08 pm

I call him The Accidental President.

I don't think he thought he would win anything. He hooked a whale and couldn't let go as it pulled him into the abyss. By this time he must be thinking what the hell did I do?

I can go along with it being tragicomedy, for sure.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mr Vacuum » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:24 pm

The opportunity cost of four years of chaos is tough to swallow. On top of the sunk costs... how much do we dump into running an election and then transitioning administrations? Sheesh, it'd be nice to get something done. I don't even care what, just something.
dualstow wrote:Benko, surely it's A, or at least parts of A. "The show' is more embarrassment than anything else, although angering China by tweeting all the time can certainly do diplomatic damage that we of course can't simply undo with superior firepower.
And there's that.

But, yes, Desert, I will be laughing when I can. Scaramucci week helped a lot on that front.

I'd like to see more of this: An Oral History of the Scaramucci Era. The article is full of quotes from real people coming from different perspectives on the big events of the week, close to or far from the action.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:50 pm

Except that it's all dead serious.

Frankly, Trump's bull-in-a-china shop way of getting things done is the least of my concerns. It's the progressives allied with a majority of the Republican party, both bent on tearing down every last edifice of civil society to the point of anarchy--that are keeping me awake at night. This week we've got a whole new set of "leaks" out of the Oval Office, as well as a Coast Guard commandant broadcasting his intent to directly defy a direct order of his Commander in Chief. These are just the latest displays of indifference toward the authority of government, and toward the rule of law itself. This is the thing that is going to destroy the country, not a bunch of miscalculated "tweets."

I find myself searching for an answer to why such extreme acts of defiance against the duly elected government--and, more importantly, the rule of law--are going virtually unpunished. It's absolutely astounding that you can broadcast a message explicitly calling for the assassination of a sitting president, and not a peep is heard from federal law enforcement. Likewise, how can it be that the Coast Guard commandant can simply "break rank" and explicitly declare his intent to defy the order of his Commander in Chief without being hauled out in shackles and court martialed?

Every day, we see the Left making new inroads in the effort to bring it all down. It's now clear who's calling the shots and where they're going. Meanwhile, the conservatives in the Department of Justice sit on their hands despite being handed, on a silver platter, all of the evidence necessary to not only indict, but to convict, many of these players. Guess they've been busy putting out the red carpet for Mueller. When, I wonder, does the truly conservative arm of government wake up and realize that the progressives and RINOs are not playing for peanuts?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Benko » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:11 pm

" It's now clear who's calling the shots and where they're going. "

This is Trump's biggest accomplishment. Not that many didn't suspect or know before this.

"Meanwhile, the conservatives in the Department of Justice sit on their hands despite being handed, on a silver platter, all of the evidence necessary to not only indict, but to convict, many of these players."

This I don't understand.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Benko wrote:" It's now clear who's calling the shots and where they're going. "

This is Trump's biggest accomplishment. Not that many didn't suspect or know before this.
Very good point.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Mr Vacuum wrote:The opportunity cost of four years of chaos is tough to swallow. On top of the sunk costs... how much do we dump into running an election and then transitioning administrations? Sheesh, it'd be nice to get something done. I don't even care what, just something.
I'd say in general, the government doing nothing is far better than it doing something. And doing nothing is worlds better than doing the wrong something. So this isn't so bad, really.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:06 pm

If Trump really wants to ban transgender people from military service (and I have no idea if he has the power to do this or not), then give a real directive to specific people with guidance on how to carry it out. To my knowledge, he has not done so. To me, this is the mark of a weak leader and feeble man.
I guess you and I made two different assumptions about whether an actual order had been given. But aren't you parsing it a bit thinly regardless? Having worked for many years in an office for either a boss or a hierarchy of bosses, I can say with assuredness that had I intentionally contravened a superior's clear statement of policy--or even an expression of preference--on grounds that I had received no actual directive, it would have been viewed as a serious instance of insubordination.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:33 pm

Maddy wrote:
If Trump really wants to ban transgender people from military service (and I have no idea if he has the power to do this or not), then give a real directive to specific people with guidance on how to carry it out. To my knowledge, he has not done so. To me, this is the mark of a weak leader and feeble man.
I guess you and I made two different assumptions about whether an actual order had been given. But aren't you parsing it a bit thinly regardless? Having worked for many years in an office for either a boss or a hierarchy of bosses, I can say with assuredness that had I intentionally contravened a superior's clear statement of policy--or even an expression of preference--on grounds that I had received no actual directive, it would have been viewed as a serious instance of insubordination.
That's one of the major differences between the private sector and the political world. There's a clearly-defined process that must be followed for these things, and if that doesn't happen, it isn't valid.

Heck, for ages, this has been the conservative argument against liberals who try to get their agenda pushed through despite the safeguards of the process (for example, with the courts, when a judge ignores the wording of a law to reach a conclusion that feels fairer).

It would be awfully ironic for the de facto leader of conservative America to act in the same way, revealing that this principled defense of process was never all that principled in the first place.

I think that's one of the big lessons that America has learned recently: every single faction's so-called principles are quickly discarded when inconvenient.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:32 am

Maddy wrote: I find myself searching for an answer to why such extreme acts of defiance against the duly elected government--and, more importantly, the rule of law--are going virtually unpunished. It's absolutely astounding that you can broadcast a message explicitly calling for the assassination of a sitting president, and not a peep is heard from federal law enforcement. Likewise, how can it be that the Coast Guard commandant can simply "break rank" and explicitly declare his intent to defy the order of his Commander in Chief without being hauled out in shackles and court martialed?
This has been gradually gathering steam for a long time. Laws are routinely ignored on both sides of the aisle and at every governmental level - think illegal immigration, medical marijuana laws, and even little things like speed limits. It's almost as if laws are no longer about keeping an ordered society, but rather to score political points and set up a flow of income to governments (via fines). Even if the immediate result is positive, undermining the significance of laws is worrisome. And it seems to be pretty universal, and not specific to any party or political wing.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by jhogue » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:19 am

Pointedstick,

Is Trump really the “de facto leader of conservative America”?

See Peggy Noonan’s column in last Saturday’s WSJ. Ronald Reagan’s most loyal speechwriter described Trump as “Woody Allen without the Humor.” She also scorched him for being a disgrace to American masculinity and unseemly in his remarks to the Boy Scouts. Can’t imagine her insisting (ala Reagan) that we just “Let Trump Be Trump!”

One possibility is that Trump will end up splitting the Republicans the way Teddy Roosevelt split the GOP between progressives and conservatives. The other is that this faux populist will fade into irrelevance and obscurity, like Jesse Ventura, the former pro wrestler who became governor of Minnesota in a 3-way contest against an unusually weak Democrat and an unappealing Republican.
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:28 am

I think the word "catalyst" best describes his role and purpose. Causing or accelerating a reaction without actually being a part of it.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Benko » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:26 pm

I think it important to keep in mind that Trump is a symptom. Tolstoy (very perceptive observer of people) wrote Kings (and I would argue presidents) are slaves of history. Trump exists because Ds (who have permanently abandoned working class people) and Rs refuse to deal with immigration, etc. If aliens beamed Trump into space forever, these voters/issues ain't going away.

Edit: I wrote this before reading Maddy's, but yes she is right.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:14 pm

jhogue wrote:Pointedstick,

Is Trump really the “de facto leader of conservative America”?
Half of it, at least.

What's been revealed is that the Peggy Noonans of the USA are the elites of a very different tribe of conservatives than the one that elected Donald Trump.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:42 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
jhogue wrote:Pointedstick,

Is Trump really the “de facto leader of conservative America”?
Half of it, at least.

What's been revealed is that the Peggy Noonans of the USA are the elites of a very different tribe of conservatives than the one that elected Donald Trump.
It's very hard to pigeonhole the tribe of conservatives that elected Donald Trump. For so many, the choice was about the lesser of two evils.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:46 pm

Can someone offer a plausible reason why Trump continues to surround himself with deep state traitors? I'm finding this awfully perplexing. Even a slow learner would, by now, understand what's going on right under his nose.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Pointedstick » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:56 pm

Maddy wrote: It's very hard to pigeonhole the tribe of conservatives that elected Donald Trump. For so many, the choice was about the lesser of two evils.
Is it? I would say that tribe is marked by the feeling of cultural and economic loss over the past 40 years. Members of that tribe have seen their way of life systematically come under attack; their idols insulted and violated; their elders disrespected; their prospects grow dim; their communities wither and choke. This tribe is dominated by Borderers, and they correctly understand that their way of life is under attack and dying quickly.

Peggy Noonan Red Tribe understands none of that. She speaks to elite, well-educated fiscally conservative professionals who live in or near the flourishing coastal cities. Her tribesmen and women are doing all right. They are college-educated government contractors, engineers, lawyers, managers, accountants. They have money. Their children have prospects. They may not like the Democrats very much, but the "burn it all down" ethos of the other red tribe turns them off because they like the current system, by and large. Because it's working for them.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:02 pm

Maddy wrote:Can someone offer a plausible reason why Trump continues to surround himself with deep state traitors? I'm finding this awfully perplexing. Even a slow learner would, by now, understand what's going on right under his nose.
The "Deep State" has had an undue and unlawful influence on government since at least 1945-ish. The fact that some folks are only now even aware much less concerned of what the deep state is indicative of how self-centered and tribal some Americans are. The don't seem to care about the millions of people that have died in this world as a result of the "deep state." But attack their buffoon in the white house and all of a sudden every "real American" knows what the deep state is and is ready to fight it. Millions of Southeast Asians and South Americans could have used that level of active skepticism.

I would highly recommend diving into some of the historical commentary of Noam Chomsky. There are lots of recordings of him on YouTube, though I've never read any of his books. You won't agree with his economics (at least I don't), but his knowledge of uncomfortable history is astounding.

But I mostly agree with Benko here... Trump is a symptom. I'd add that to immigration (hardly uncontrolled but I see what you mean) is automation, globalization's stress on labor, the decline of the middle class and white male, etc... these are an ignored aspect by both parties. Republicans stroke it by appealing to their affinity to guns & religion as it doesn't cost their true owners, the media elite, to have a social wedge driven between two wings of the middle/lower classes.

But in the end he's the one with the bombs, so I'll focus on his idiocy more than most.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:05 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Maddy wrote: It's very hard to pigeonhole the tribe of conservatives that elected Donald Trump. For so many, the choice was about the lesser of two evils.
Is it? I would say that tribe is marked by the feeling of cultural and economic loss over the past 40 years. Members of that tribe have seen their way of life systematically come under attack; their idols insulted and violated; their elders disrespected; their prospects grow dim; their communities wither and choke. This tribe is dominated by Borderers, and they correctly understand that their way of life is under attack and dying quickly.

Peggy Noonan Red Tribe understands none of that. She speaks to elite, well-educated fiscally conservative professionals who live in or near the flourishing coastal cities. Her tribesmen and women are doing all right. They are college-educated government contractors, engineers, lawyers, managers, accountants. They have money. Their children have prospects. They may not like the Democrats very much, but the "burn it all down" ethos of the other red tribe turns them off because they like the current system, by and large. Because it's working for them.
Agreed... using Maddy's logic, any major candidate's supporters are "hard to pin down" because they are 45% of the population and, naturally, it could hardly be monolithic. There are huge differences between liberals as well, which is why I find monolithic discussions of "the Left" to be equally laughable.

The enthusiastic Trump supporters really aren't that hard to pin down. The "lesser of two evils" voters are half our damn population... and half of them voted for Hillary.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by farjean2 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:22 pm

moda0306 wrote: The enthusiastic Trump supporters really aren't that hard to pin down. The "lesser of two evils" voters are half our damn population... and half of them voted for Hillary.
I know a lot of folks who voted for Trump and I can't think of a single one who did it because he was the lesser of two evils. Most of them were immigrants from the Philippines but there were also a lot of Indians at work who were supporting him before I retired last year. So what was the message they responded to? - Make America Great Again - that was the promise that brought them here in the first place.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Benko » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:13 pm

MangoMan wrote: The basic problem, as I see it, is that there are only 2 parties
Uniparty: The basic problem is that Hillary, Jeb and most of the Rs (despite what they say) are mostly the same.

Then you have Bernie Sanders and supporters on the left

And Trump supporters wherever you lump them. And a ton of them voted for him because, not as lesser of evils.

Fortunately the Rs are not as ruthless as the Ds and they were unable to do to Trump what Ds did to Bernie supporters.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:32 pm

Trump tapped into what you might consider to be a hidden political party that was in the Republican fold mainly because they felt they had no better choice. It's been dubbed "populist" and that's as good a word as any, but "disenfranchised and out of favor" might be more descriptive. I honestly thought this was far-seeing of Trump, but now it seems like it was purely accidental. A rather painful turn of events.

After Trump is out of office, regardless of who takes over this group of voters will fade into the woodwork and once again be forgotten. I think. Many of them probably see now that the Republicans have no more regard for them than the Democrats do. Hillary's "deplorables" comment pretty much sums up the latter opinion.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:30 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
That article says far more about the state of the writer's mind than it does about Trump's mind.
+0
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:01 am

Wild exaggeration? Hyperbole? Outright lying? No cost for being caught in a lie? Extreme spinning? Reality doesn't really matter?

Sounds like a politician to me.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:18 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:Wild exaggeration? Hyperbole? Outright lying? No cost for being caught in a lie? Extreme spinning? Reality doesn't really matter?

Sounds like a politician to me.
So we should at the very least treat him no-better than one, right?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:28 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:Wild exaggeration? Hyperbole? Outright lying? No cost for being caught in a lie? Extreme spinning? Reality doesn't really matter?

Sounds like a politician to me.
It certainly does. That writer should run for office!
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