Trump as tragicomedy

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Xan » Fri May 04, 2018 8:58 am

And certainly anybody with self-employment income is in better shape.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Tyler » Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 am

Kriegsspiel wrote: I look at that facet of the new tax code in a different perspective. Instead of making it less pleasant, it makes it correctly pleasant. People who live in prodigal high-tax high-spend areas shouldn't expect people living in other states to subsidize their high local taxes.
+1

Most people I know who ultimately chose to leave high tax states know exactly who to attribute their financial roadblock to. And it ain't the feds.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 11:00 am

Tyler wrote:
Kriegsspiel wrote: I look at that facet of the new tax code in a different perspective. Instead of making it less pleasant, it makes it correctly pleasant. People who live in prodigal high-tax high-spend areas shouldn't expect people living in other states to subsidize their high local taxes.
+1

Most people I know who ultimately chose to leave high tax states know exactly who to attribute their financial roadblock to. And it ain't the feds.
Except the fact that people in high-tax (blue) states tend to also contribute a substantially higher proportion to the federal coffers as well, even with the deduction, which a lot of the higher income folks got limited on due to AMT anyway.

High-tax states have been doing well-more than their "fair share" towards the feds. Looks like red states will be even more on the welfare dole than they have been in the past... ;)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 11:05 am

Take a look at this and sort by revenue per capita or revenue per GSP...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_t ... e_by_state

Us commies pay our fair share and then some. ;)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Tyler » Fri May 04, 2018 12:11 pm

moda0306 wrote:Take a look at this and sort by revenue per capita or revenue per GSP...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_t ... e_by_state

Us commies pay our fair share and then some. ;)
As a former Bay Area engineer, I get it! But I think it's a mistake to conflate people and places.

States don't pay federal taxes -- people and businesses do. Be sure to check that list again in a few years to see how the numbers redistribute once those people and businesses move on to greener pastures now that they're no longer receiving federal welfare to stay in their high-tax states. ;)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri May 04, 2018 12:34 pm

moda0306 wrote: Except the fact that people in high-tax (blue) states tend to also contribute a substantially higher proportion to the federal coffers as well, even with the deduction, which a lot of the higher income folks got limited on due to AMT anyway.

High-tax states have been doing well-more than their "fair share" towards the feds. Looks like red states will be even more on the welfare dole than they have been in the past... ;)
My argument is that that everyone's fair share is independent of state/local taxes, since theoretically federal taxes benefit all citizens. Even agreeing that people choosing to live in high SALT areas send a good chunk of change to the IRS, they shouldn't be getting a break for choosing to live somewhere that has high additional taxes. They're presumably getting higher quality/quantity services, "beach" tax, higher-paid teachers, or whatever.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 1:50 pm

Tyler wrote:
moda0306 wrote:Take a look at this and sort by revenue per capita or revenue per GSP...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_t ... e_by_state

Us commies pay our fair share and then some. ;)
As a former Bay Area engineer, I get it! But I think it's a mistake to conflate people and places.

States don't pay federal taxes -- people and businesses do. Be sure to check that list again in a few years to see how the numbers redistribute once those people and businesses move on to greener pastures now that they're no longer receiving federal welfare to stay in their high-tax states. ;)
Tyler,

I'll be happy to compare my state of MN to others in 5-8 years when we are still cream of the crop in many statistics, just as we have been for years with high taxes, rich social safety net, and stronger environmental regulations, as well as having a huge amount of our incomes siphoned off to "subsidize" poor, white conservatives all over the red states. And I realize people pay taxes, not states. Like the liberal people who want people to have universal healthcare, for instance, who pay a ton of tax in blue states.

I'm not even a "liberal," from my point of view, nor would I want to presuppose that it's self-evident that a "welfare state" is the preferred model, but I hate how these garbage arguments float around conservative circles like they are the only people that work, especially when the meat of this tax bill has nothing to due with the state tax deduction limitation, and much more to do with rearranging deck chairs for lower-to-middle class folks while significantly helping business owners and corporations through lower tax rates and fake deductions.

And like I said, the effect isn't even that great, as many of the higher income folks who at first glance would be most affected by this were paying AMT before, which severely muted the benefits of the state income tax deduction.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 pm

MangoMan wrote:
moda0306 wrote:Take a look at this and sort by revenue per capita or revenue per GSP...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_t ... e_by_state

Us commies pay our fair share and then some. ;)
How/why does MN have such a high revenue per capita? I get DC and Delaware, but MN?
I was surprised at that too. I'm really not sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _by_income

We are near but definitely not tip-top of the income per capita measure.

One thing I'm thinking is that we have a lot of wage-earning income, which is taxed incredibly high compared to taxing capital, but anyone that has enough wealth to separate themselves from their sources of income usually won't stay in MN. A lot of them turn to snow birds and move to Arizona, Florida, etc. It's a lot easier when your wealth is in the form of assets and not a body you have to put to work.

Just my initial hypothesis...

But I'm certainly not trying to be smug. I was just born here and probably lean left with some "angry leftist" opinions as well as some "anti-leftist" ones. I just don't like people parroting garbage analysis of the facts in ways that divide people along lines that are entirely artificial. Lots of liberals are great people and work their @sses off, and lots of conservatives are irresponsible, entitled f*ckheads. And vice versa.

The tax code isn't about blue states vs red states. It's about wages/salaried/self-employed vs capital. Wages/SE pay fica/medicare. Capital does not. Wages/SE pay ordinary tax rates. Capital often is gifted sweetheart rates. Wages/SE often don't get to deduct their basis in an asset (their education, for instance) when determining taxable income. Capital does. Wages/SE is entirely immobile and is often stuck where they are no matter the tax load. Capital, via trade deals and other lobbying, is now hugely mobile globally, and use that mobility to justify sweeter deals from governments to play them against each other. Capital benefits from a massive military industrial complex design mainly to defend and enforce their trade interests overseas. Wages/SE barely benefit at all from such a contraption.

I think we're kind of losing the forest when we talk about blue state tax rates and how it affects people's decisions. It's a tiny part of the bill when adjusted for the AMT having been around before. Like I said... rearranging the deck chairs... while the plutocrats get on the life boats and we debate over crumbs.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Fri May 04, 2018 2:12 pm

I can't answer for Desert on the sadistic thing, but I do think our commander in chief is pretty mean-spirited. I mean, bringing up the "Pocahontas" jibe (Elizabeth Warren) during a quick speech where he was supposed to be honoring Native American war vets?

It certainly is not an impeachment-level sin, but classy he is not.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:01 pm

Agreed, classy he is not.

I guess I'm not classy either, though. I love it when he does things like the Pocahontas or Fauxcahontas shtick. Trust me, most of those smug, hypocritical leftists deserve any mocking that comes their way. And I'm not even a voter. I'm sure a lot of the people who vote for Trump like that stuff even more. That's why he does it. Classy, no. But maybe effective. Definitely entertaining for people like me who see most/all of politics as Kabuki theater anyway.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:25 pm

stuper1 wrote:Agreed, classy he is not.

I guess I'm not classy either, though. I love it when he does things like the Pocahontas or Fauxcahontas shtick. Trust me, most of those smug, hypocritical leftists deserve any mocking that comes their way. And I'm not even a voter. I'm sure a lot of the people who vote for Trump like that stuff even more. That's why he does it. Classy, no. But maybe effective. Definitely entertaining for people like me who see most/all of politics as Kabuki theater anyway.
I guess I'd "love it" if it was at all witty and not towards a group of NA's. I love dark, inappropriate humor. But 1) the key is HUMOR, and 2) he's the head of the largest killing machine in the history of the world. His instability is ours...

Did you see his speech to the Boy Scouts by chance? Did you love that one too? That's got to be hands-down one of the slimiest, creepiest things I've seen out of a President.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri May 04, 2018 4:50 pm

No, I heard little about the Boy Scout speech. Was it really that bad? Did he brag in front of these poor impressionable youngsters about being able to grab women in unmentionable places?

I'm a bit surprised by your pearl clutching on this one. I would have thought you'd be a lot more concerned about terrible things done by our military in far off countries, which by the way seem truly awful to me as well. To me, the speeches and tweets and all that garbage is unimportant. It's the laws and regulations and actual military actions that matter.

I don't think the Fauxcahontas comments were against real native Americans. They were against a white woman claiming to be a NA for political advantage.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:02 pm

stuper1 wrote:No, I heard little about the Boy Scout speech. Was it really that bad? Did he brag in front of these poor impressionable youngsters about being able to grab women in unmentionable places?

I'm a bit surprised by your pearl clutching on this one. I would have thought you'd be a lot more concerned about terrible things done by our military in far off countries, which by the way seem truly awful to me as well. To me, the speeches and tweets and all that garbage is unimportant. It's the laws and regulations and actual military actions that matter.

I don't think the Fauxcahontas comments were against real native Americans. They were against a white woman claiming to be a NA for political advantage.
You said you "loved" those comments and are surprised that I'm "pearl clutching?" I didn't actually think that much of them, but you wanted to make a point to say how much you love his bombastic offending of liberals.

And overall I could usually care less what a President says in terms of the upside (fancy speeches and such), but the downside it may indicate quite a bit, so a president that can barely string together a rational thought or express ideas clearly certainly is a problem... but in that case I care even more about actions.

Such as the slime he's nominated for several key top spots in his cabinet, one of the clearest expression of a president's "actions," as he's mostly in the driver's seat.

Look, are we talking about Trump's style here, or his "actions?" If we're talking about his style, it's utterly clear that he's pure garbage. If it's his actions, well it's almost as clear, as his cabinet is even worse than Bush II, and the one area he has the most control (foreign policy), he's expanded mass murder. I'll make one possible exception for the N/S Korea deal, where if enough evidence is presented that he played a positive roll in those dealings I'll acknowledge it, or at least the possibility of it, given our lack of knowledge of all the details and multiple points of view that may all seem plausible.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:34 pm

I don't see that he has expanded mass murder. Maybe stayed the course set for a long time, but I don't see expanded. I do wish Bolton weren't there, but time will tell if our foreign involvement stays as bad as it had been with Bush II and Obama.

He has helped to tighten our border a bit, which is a good thing in my view. A nation with a laughable border is in my view a laughable nation.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Sun May 06, 2018 5:44 am

Desert wrote:I find it amusing when regular folks carry Trump's little memes out into the world. The "swamp" is one such source of humor for me. Here's a humorous Cavuto video on related topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwPsFgplIj8

I think the "swamp" is loosely defined as anyone in the GOP that dares to oppose Trump's madness. If that's the case, I'm a swamp-supporter (though not officially a member of the swamp, since I'm not a Republican). I wish Trump supporters would dare to use their brains rather than parroting his idiocy. Come on, please. This guy is just a ridiculous celebrity, of the Kanye and Kardashian type ... don't parrot his nonsense; it just makes you look foolish to anyone with a brain.
Also Trump's cabinet is full of corporate insiders; full on Swamp Creatures. Talk about foxes guarding the henhouse.

The height of hypocrisy and misdirection. That anyone falls for it is hard to believe.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun May 06, 2018 4:04 pm

Desert wrote:I find it amusing when regular folks carry Trump's little memes out into the world. The "swamp" is one such source of humor for me. Here's a humorous Cavuto video on related topics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwPsFgplIj8

I think the "swamp" is loosely defined as anyone in the GOP that dares to oppose Trump's madness. If that's the case, I'm a swamp-supporter (though not officially a member of the swamp, since I'm not a Republican). I wish Trump supporters would dare to use their brains rather than parroting his idiocy. Come on, please. This guy is just a ridiculous celebrity, of the Kanye and Kardashian type ... don't parrot his nonsense; it just makes you look foolish to anyone with a brain.
Bigly is my favorite. Hands down. You sprinkle a 'bigly' into regular conversation and you will see some double takes, and possibly headsplosions.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by hardlawjockey » Tue May 08, 2018 6:09 pm

I think Trump should pardon all the U.S. citizens that have already been indicted by Mueller's team (Manafort, Flynn) in this so-called "Russian Collusion" investigation. As for the Russians who were indicted, everybody, left and right, seems to understand that was a toothless joke any way. He should also announce that since he knows that this is nothing more than a "witch hunt" any future U.S. citizens indicted in this proble will be immediately pardoned.

If he were to do this, you would hear screams from the left and the MSM (I repeat myself) that we are headed for a "constitutional crisis" of epic proportions.

Well, that is exactly what those on the left are looking for any way. So Trump might as well read the handwriting on the wall and join the battle (and unless I have misjudged him I think something like this will eventually come to pass - seems inevitable).

For the record, I cast my first presidential vote for Trump in a long time but have been very disappointed in a lot of things he has done. So what's new with that?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by hardlawjockey » Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:44 pm
hardlawjockey wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 6:09 pm
I think Trump should pardon all the U.S. citizens that have already been indicted by Mueller's team (Manafort, Flynn) in this so-called "Russian Collusion" investigation. As for the Russians who were indicted, everybody, left and right, seems to understand that was a toothless joke any way. He should also announce that since he knows that this is nothing more than a "witch hunt" any future U.S. citizens indicted in this proble will be immediately pardoned.

If he were to do this, you would hear screams from the left and the MSM (I repeat myself) that we are headed for a "constitutional crisis" of epic proportions.

Well, that is exactly what those on the left are looking for any way. So Trump might as well read the handwriting on the wall and join the battle (and unless I have misjudged him I think something like this will eventually come to pass - seems inevitable).

For the record, I cast my first presidential vote for Trump in a long time but have been very disappointed in a lot of things he has done. So what's new with that?
Sorry to hear that you voted for Trump. While I'll never understand how anyone could do that, I do hope that better candidates emerge in the future. We're at an all-time low right now, so I have hope that choices will be better in the next round. Meanwhile, go Mueller.
Never is a long time. I'll bet you could really understand how people could vote for Trump if you gave it enough thought.

I hope for better candidates in the future too but it may well turn out that Trump is the best we can hope for.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Thu May 10, 2018 2:29 pm

People always say to vote on policies not personalities. But then they often seem to do the opposite, or they can't see things from the other point of view because they are blinded by someone's charm or lack thereof.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:29 pm
People always say to vote on policies not personalities. But then they often seem to do the opposite, or they can't see things from the other point of view because they are blinded by someone's charm or lack thereof.
I agree that we should vote on policies and not personalities. I must say that Trump does come across as sleazy to me (I'm not sure what the right word is for Trump - Sleazy? Crude? Used car salesman? Info-commercial actor? Obama makes me want to barf every time I hear him speak. Hillary makes me shudder. It is hard to describe that gut feeling that is evoked in me re. Trump, Obama, and Hillary to name a few) but Trump's accomplishments to date are better than I expected.

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri May 11, 2018 8:48 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 am
stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:29 pm
People always say to vote on policies not personalities. But then they often seem to do the opposite, or they can't see things from the other point of view because they are blinded by someone's charm or lack thereof.
I agree that we should vote on policies and not personalities. I must say that Trump does come across as sleazy to me (I'm not sure what the right word is for Trump - Sleazy? Crude? Used car salesman? Info-commercial actor? Obama makes me want to barf every time I hear him speak. Hillary makes me shudder. It is hard to describe that gut feeling that is evoked in me re. Trump, Obama, and Hillary to name a few) but Trump's accomplishments to date are better than I expected.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/davi ... irrational
What politicians (in terms of personality) do you "like?" To me, Hillary and Trump are both awful in completely opposite ways. Hillary is just the epitome of "calculating politician." Though I don't see her as materially different from Jeb, Marco, or Cruz in that regard. I mostly like Obama from a personality standpoint. To conflate him with Hillary or Trump is ridiculous to me, but of course this is mostly subjective.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by clacy » Fri May 11, 2018 8:58 am

Wow, I don't even know what to say. The FBI has sunk to a new low. Zero credibility. They planted a spy in the Trump campaign.

Weaponized politics should be scary for both sides, since either one can use it....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/about-that ... 1525992611

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 3d7c2a55c1
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Fri May 11, 2018 9:33 am

moda0306 wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:48 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 am
stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:29 pm
People always say to vote on policies not personalities. But then they often seem to do the opposite, or they can't see things from the other point of view because they are blinded by someone's charm or lack thereof.
I agree that we should vote on policies and not personalities. I must say that Trump does come across as sleazy to me (I'm not sure what the right word is for Trump - Sleazy? Crude? Used car salesman? Info-commercial actor? Obama makes me want to barf every time I hear him speak. Hillary makes me shudder. It is hard to describe that gut feeling that is evoked in me re. Trump, Obama, and Hillary to name a few) but Trump's accomplishments to date are better than I expected.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/davi ... irrational
What politicians (in terms of personality) do you "like?" To me, Hillary and Trump are both awful in completely opposite ways. Hillary is just the epitome of "calculating politician." Though I don't see her as materially different from Jeb, Marco, or Cruz in that regard. I mostly like Obama from a personality standpoint. To conflate him with Hillary or Trump is ridiculous to me, but of course this is mostly subjective.
In terms of personality, these come to mind: Reagan, Eisenhower, Truman, John Kennedy (Ted - yuck), Ryan, Manchin, Jim Webb, George H W Bush, Roberts. After a quick scan of current Senators, Reps, SC Justices, and Presidents I've come to the conclusion that almost all high level Federal politicians are not my cup of tea from a personality perspective. I guess I'll just have to keep voting based on policies and platforms all the while realizing they are likely just hot air. ;)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Sun May 13, 2018 7:08 am

I read the WSJ piece. That is indeed troubling.
clacy wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:58 am
Wow, I don't even know what to say. The FBI has sunk to a new low. Zero credibility. They planted a spy in the Trump campaign.

Weaponized politics should be scary for both sides, since either one can use it....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/about-that ... 1525992611

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 3d7c2a55c1
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Sat May 19, 2018 10:38 pm

It's becoming all too clear today that

1. The dems were so absolutely sure that they would win the election that they took the staggering, and obviously illegal, step of placing an informant inside the Trump campaign.

2. So confident, they were, that they got incredibly sloppy.

3. Trump's surprise win left them with a very big problem, and raised the specter of serious prison time for all the usual suspects, including Obama himself.

4. So in a desperate attempt to cover their tracks, they concocted the Russian conspiracy, which would allow them to claim, pretextually, that the illegal, politically-motivated investigation that had been going on for some time had some other purpose than to flat-out spy on the Trump campaign.

There's no doubt in my mind, at this point, that this is exactly what occurred.
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