Trump as tragicomedy

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Mountaineer
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:17 am

moda0306 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:It could be worse if Jerry Brown were the President. But, perhaps the 400,000 looking for work will enable the ponzi scheme to continue elsewhere. Who knows, maybe those food workers will build the next moon mission equipment. ;)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelsal ... 2bda43b9ed
Yeah what a disaster. Their unemployment rate is almost as high as West Virginia! ;)

I kid. Love that state.
Moda, you cute kid!

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:23 am

Maybe it's just Jeff Sessions whom I hate. Especially this morning.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:49 am

dualstow wrote:Maybe it's just Jeff Sessions whom I hate. Especially this morning.
(IIPR in my vp)
Unless one's love of liberty starts and ends at the economic liberty of businesses and the wealthy, the appointment of Sessions alone should leave one at least mildly disgusted with this administration.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:42 pm

"Trump Demands That Publisher Halt Release of Critical Book"

President Sociopath / Constitutional Ignoramus
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:45 pm

ochotona wrote:"Trump Demands That Publisher Halt Release of Critical Book"

President Sociopath / Constitutional Ignoramus
This is just a distraction so the establishment media doesn't notice him disassembling the Deep State. ::)
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mr Vacuum » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:55 pm

The “I resign/No you’re fired” bit keeps the comedy rolling (Bannon, Omarosa, surely more to come over the course of the administration).

Only to be outdone by the “Resign/I resign/Not accepted” bit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/us/p ... cgahn.html
The president fired Mr. Comey the following day.

A week later, The Times reported that Mr. Trump had asked Mr. Comey in February to shut down the federal investigation into Michael T. Flynn, who at the time was the national security adviser. The following day, Mr. Rosenstein announced that he had appointed Mr. Mueller as special counsel.

Once again, Mr. Trump erupted at Mr. Sessions upon hearing the news. In an Oval Office meeting, the president said the attorney general had been disloyal for recusing himself from the Russia investigation, and he told Mr. Sessions to resign.

Mr. Sessions sent his resignation letter to the president the following day. But Mr. Trump rejected it, sending it back with a handwritten note at the top.

“Not accepted,” the note said.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:55 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
stuper1 wrote:I saw a comment on unz.com this morning that seemed like a simple, good explanation for why the establishment doesn't like Trump:

"mass immigration is all about propping up the ponzi economy by increasing population and increasing consumer demand….
consumer demand is 70% or more of the economy…and the economy is a confidence-based construct…as long as consumer demand stays up, the economy stays up…and if the economy stays up, the CEOs and shareholders of the big corporations keep making millions and profits stay high, and if profits stay high, then the media keeps making money on ads bought by the big corporations…

that is why the establishment and esp. the media hate trump and the alt-right–we threaten immigration and thus we threaten the ponzi economy"

I can't say that I am an alt-right person, because I don't really know what that means, although I suspect I have some sympathy for some of their ideas such as the above. If alt-right means racist, then definitely I am not alt-right, because I love all people, and in fact am married to a wonderful woman of another race. However, just because I love all people, does not mean that I want all of them living in my country. I think they should stay in their own countries and build them into beautiful nations.

In short, no, Trump (sadly) does not appear to be threatening the military-industrial complex, but he has promised to threaten the immigrationistas who prop up the ponzi economy. I love that phrase "ponzi economy" because it rings so true.
[devil's advocate]
Why would you want the ponzi scheme to stop? Aren't you a shareholder of the corporations, benefiting from higher profits? Don't you like the extra tax revenue that keeps the interstate highways going? Why do you hate cheap food and gasoline? Why would you want immigrants to stay in their own countries instead of paying taxes in America? Don't you own US Treasuries?
[/devil's advocate]
Ponzi economy - love that phrase.

The ponzi scheme works for me, stuper1, and others at the federal and corporate pricing level. But, the mass immigration of unskilled, uneducated, non English speakers is a disaster at the state and local level where they use far more state services and benefits than they can possibly pay back in taxes. I also worry about the long term effects of building up the size of the lower class and proportionally reducing the sizes of the middle and upper classes. The shift is likely going to be very durable, because of the lack of assimilation. Like my dad used to say: "Too many people in the wagon and not enough pulling it."

Immigration at the skilled end of the scale, on the other hand, not only isn't a problem but probably needs to be expanded. About 3/4 of immigration is people gaining entry because they have family members in the U.S. That squeezes out opportunities for people who have something to contribute, and tends to potentiate immigration of groups that are already here in large numbers - which works against the melting pot and ethnic diversity. Restricting the family member loophole and instituting a points system so that immigration is based on value to the US economy & society seriously needs to happen.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:39 am

WiseOne, I agree 100%.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:34 am

Isn't all of the economy essentially the "ponzi economy?" People don't produce for production's sake. They "produce" for compensation from someone else's consumption. The consumer is either consuming basic needs items, or they're consuming something very discretionary and fleeting, making a "producer" wealthier in-doing-so.

So one could argue a Mexican day-laboror working on a farm to produce food for people is more of a part of the "real economy" than an engineer trying to figure out how to get a Ford Focus to have better performance or comfort traits. Obviously I'm cherry-picking these examples... just to prove a point... not that engineers<Mexicans or anything.

But in the end all production is eventually in the service of some form of consumption. If you think the consumption is largely superfluous and not adding to wealth & health of society, you'll have no argument here (I find consumerist temptations are often fleeting & prove to be of little value but for the quenching of the thirst that knowing the item existed created), but the people peddling those things (aka, "producers") are just-as-if-not-more-so part of that ponzi scheme than the consumer.

Even real "wealth" at a systemic level is often either simply naturally occuring OR is at the consumer level. No company, business, intellectual property, "hard work" in an employment setting, etc, etc would be value but for its ability to feed some sort of consumption activity. It's those consumer items being made up more of durable goods rather than the basic needs of life that adds to net wealth. Every other form of wealth (stock value, for instance) is some sort of present value set upon the future demand of consumers for the item that firm produces. Take away that ultimate consumption value, and the value of the means of production are gone.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:57 pm

You gotta wonder one of these days his twitter posts will have to tick the top of the market.

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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Mr Vacuum » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:35 pm

The irony is global ex-US markets are outperforming over the referenced time frame.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by ochotona » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:47 pm

Mr Vacuum wrote:The irony is global ex-US markets are outperforming over the referenced time frame.
By a large margin... over the last year, by about 4.5% !
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:41 am

I try to ignore Trump's tweets. It's like those TV shows where a character does something so painfully embarrassing you can hardly bear to watch.

Did any of you see the articles about a Yale psychiatrist trying to push the idea of of a diagnosable mental illness?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-unravelin ... tal-770250

Given that some psychiatric diagnoses (the new version of bipolar disorder, ADHD, any Axis II disorder) can be applied to any human on the planet, and that probably most lawmakers could easily qualify for some Axis II disorders like narcissism, this is a pretty dangerous path to go down. Fortunately, some prominent psychiatrists have come out against this action as unprofessional and frankly a violation of medical ethics. Maybe, but mainly it looks to me like she's over-interpreting in a big way.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:51 am

I heard the psychiatrist's diagnosis reported on a mainstream radio station. Talk about fake news. It's ridiculous that such a thing would even get reported by a supposedly reputable news source. I can't remember which station it was. Could have been CBS or NPR. Sometimes I tune in NPR to see if they have any interesting cultural stuff, but I regret it as soon as they report on anything political.
Simonjester wrote: i guess the American Psychological Association doesn't care about the "Goldwater" rule any more..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater_rule
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:25 am

Everything's fair when combatting Literal Hitler*.

* I always hear the Lil Hitler soundbyte when I see 'Literal Hitler,' because I'm a freak.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:32 pm

Now that we're out of the Middle Ages and are rapidly discovering the neurophysiological basis for "mental illnesses," I wonder why the subject matter of psychiatry hasn't been subsumed within the field of clinical neurology. Why do we, as a society, affirm the legitimacy of a profession that routinely saddles people with subjective, life-altering labels that come and go depending upon the mood of the APA membership and that have have no basis whatsoever in science? WiseOne?

Some guesses, off the top of my head:

(1) Medicine abhors uncertainty, and the biological basis for much of what we regard as "mental illness" is still largely unknown.

(2) The people who present with "mental illness" are unpleasant to deal with.

(3) The cost of treating people with "mental illness" according to customary medical standards would be staggering, and the affected population lacks sufficient political clout to challenge the standard of care.

(4) There will always be too much inherent overlap between the neurological and volitional causes of "mental illness" to effectively sort it all out.

(5) There are political reasons for cordoning off a particularly repugnant segment of the underclass onto which a multitude of social evils can be blamed and a multitude of character defects can be projected.

(6) A deep-seated human need for both vengeance and cognitive consonance is satisfied when you can label somebody's predicament in life as their own damned fault.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:25 am

Good question, Maddie.

There is a lot of overlap between neurology and psychiatry, and in fact the board exams for each are from the same organization and include questions from both specialties. But they will remain separate for a few very simple reasons: there is a separate residency program for each fixed in stone by Medicaid, and insurance treats the two specialties differently as you noted. The turf wars can be kind of fun - mostly it's about psychiatrists not wanting to deal with a purely neurological problem.

I'm thinking Donald Trump could have a field day suing the Yale psychiatrist for libel, as Goldwater did successfully. Even if she's right I can't understand how this isn't an ethical breach. I think she's trying to sidestep by calling it a "dangerous mental illness" instead of specifying a precise diagnosis.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:31 am

WiseOne wrote:Good question, Maddie.

There is a lot of overlap between neurology and psychiatry, and in fact the board exams for each are from the same organization and include questions from both specialties. But they will remain separate for a few very simple reasons: there is a separate residency program for each fixed in stone by Medicaid, and insurance treats the two specialties differently as you noted. The turf wars can be kind of fun - mostly it's about psychiatrists not wanting to deal with a purely neurological problem.

I'm thinking Donald Trump could have a field day suing the Yale psychiatrist for libel, as Goldwater did successfully. Even if she's right I can't understand how this isn't an ethical breach. I think she's trying to sidestep by calling it a "dangerous mental illness" instead of specifying a precise diagnosis.
Can public figures sue for libel/slander? I thought that was pretty much nixed.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:13 pm

moda0306 wrote:Can public figures sue for libel/slander? I thought that was pretty much nixed.
Yes, but the standard of proof is higher. For a public figure, most states require a showing of actual malice, which is defined as either actual knowledge of the falsity of the statement or a reckless disregard for the truth. In addition, all of the elements of the tort have to be proven by clear and convincing evidence, which is a substantial notch higher than the usual "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

I think this woman has pretty much cooked her goose. Any psychiatrist that would presume to make a diagnosis from sound bites on the TV (or to cavalierly toss around the loaded word "dangerous") does not have a particularly bright future.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:39 pm

She has a very paranoid look about her. Is there a diagnosis in which paranoia coexists with grandiosity, impulsivity, opposition toward authority, and lack of appreciation for the consequences of her behavior?
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:06 am

I'm sure there is. I thought her reasoning actually had a rational basis until she got to the part about Trump threatening the survival of the human species. But, I wouldn't presume to make a diagnosis without having done an exam :-).

Ironically, it's been informally observed from the inside that many students who go into psychiatry are, let us say, in need of the free mental health benefit (they all get career-long counseling & psychoanalysis).
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:56 pm

Ah, c'mon, WiseOne. Put on your psychiatrist hat and enjoy the creative license. It's not like you have to do an exam or anything. Just pick five out of nine criteria that look like they fit.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:46 am

OK then. You can't go wrong with borderline personality disorder with a hint of narcissism. Of course, that describes pretty much every human on the planet, as we all have those tendencies to some degree.

I honestly don't know what her deal is. It could be anything from a reasonably sane person trying to get some publicity to bring to the promotion table, to someone who is genuinely disordered. However, it's impossible to tell what motivated the disorder. Like, it could be simply a personality disorder, or it could be out and out psychosis. No way to tell.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:41 am

[deleted--posted to wrong place.]
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 am

Imagine if Trump didn't tweet. The craziness of the past weeks would be out of the way, and we’d see a White House that is briskly pursuing its goals: the shift in our Pakistan policy, the shift in our offshore drilling policy, the fruition of our ISIS policy, the nomination for judgeships and the formation of policies on infrastructure, DACA, North Korea and trade.

It’s almost as if there are two White Houses. There’s the Potemkin White House, which we tend to focus on: Trump berserk in front of the TV, the lawyers working the Russian investigation and the press operation. Then there is the Invisible White House that you never hear about, which is getting more effective at managing around the distracted boss.

I sometimes wonder if the Invisible White House has learned to use the Potemkin White House to deke us while it changes the country.

I mention these inconvenient observations because the anti-Trump movement, of which I’m a proud member, seems to be getting dumber. It seems to be settling into a smug, fairy tale version of reality that filters out discordant information. More anti-Trumpers seem to be telling themselves a “Madness of King George” narrative: Trump is a semiliterate madman surrounded by sycophants who are morally, intellectually and psychologically inferior to people like us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/opin ... eft-region
Libertarian666 faps furiously :P
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