Trump as tragicomedy

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moda0306
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:47 pm

I'm open to all sorts of ideas if they can be backed up by evidence, but this idea that Trump is a threat to the deep state and that our main concern should be their war against him, with no mention of his expanding our nuclear arsenal immensely, staying cozy with Israel and Saudi Arabia in downright creepy ways, continuing to support war/genocide in Yemen, expanding the police state, giving generals more control in our wars, flip-flopping on Syria intervention and discussing NONE of these issues with any nuance or intelligence is just-as-if-not-more-so idiotic than the flamboyant display of bad/manipulative journalism with regards to Russian collusion. I'd say far-more, since the claims are ridiculous on their face, where-as someone has to do digging to develop an educated opinion on the Russia collusion stuff.

Donald Trump is NOT Ron Paul. He's a war-monger police-statist who could care less for due-process, human rights, the 1st/4th Amendments, limited war-making powers, or limiting the scope of the nefarious powers of the CIA or the NSA (he thinks Snowden should be executed, remember?). He might disagree with how these powers are projected, but he doesn't disagree with using them. He's made this abundantly clear both before and after he was elected/inaugurated.

If someone disagrees with this last paragraph, I guess I don't know what to say. It's fine if you agree with him, but let's acknowledge what exactly you are agreeing with, and it certainly is NOT the elimination of permanent executive war-making abilities and other secretive/violent "national security" power-centers.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:17 pm

Seems to me this is nothing more than what we lived with throughout the Bush, Clinton, and Obama presidencies. I see absolutely nothing new and different from Trump in the areas of civil liberties and foreign policy.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by l82start » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:43 am

moda0306 wrote:giving generals more control in our wars,
that one i tend to agree with, the need to go to war is as questionable as it always has been, but the idea politicians can run wars based on political decisions should have gone the way of the dodo after Korea and Vietnam, and yet here we are all these years later watching bush (Afghanistan Iraq ) Obama (Afghanistan Iraq Arab spring Syria etc) making the same mistake, i don't want the US to be "world police man" or the MIC to be getting us into wars... but if you did or do have to fight letting the guys that know how to fight be in charge of the fight, is the way to win and be done with it.. the politically run quagmire war is an invention of the military industrial complex a giant cash machine for them, and nothing more..
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:32 am

Maddy wrote:Seems to me this is nothing more than what we lived with throughout the Bush, Clinton, and Obama presidencies. I see absolutely nothing new and different from Trump in the areas of civil liberties and foreign policy.
I think reasonable people could disagree whether Trump is "nothing more than" those folks or perhaps a few shades worse due to his threats and demeanor, but I'll fully admit that I waffle between those two opinions. I'm by no means a Trump alarmist in the context of him being grossly worse than the other war-mongers before him from an actual policy standpoint (so far in terms of actual actions rather than rhetoric). But considering how bad Clinton/Bush/Obama/Reagan/etc were, I'll be "alarmist" in the sense of mentioning that he's at least worse if not a few shades darker.

What I won't swallow are the parades of bullsh!t trying to claim that this guy is a threat to entrenched economic and war-profiteering interests, and that our biggest threat at this time is "the deep state's war with Trump." The deep state is a threat to the prosperity of the world. But Trump is not at odds with this power. He just has a different vision for how to use it... if you can call his blathering nonsense "vision."

I can't point out strong enough that I have almost zero good things to say about Clinton and would be verbally slaughtering self-ascribed "liberals" right now for sitting on their hands while she commits war crimes and builds cement around secretive and murderous power structures. I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't get "woke" on foreign policy until 2015-ish. But now the gloves are off for me. The anti-war left is all but a shadow of its former self, and needs to be woken up within liberals so they focus less on trans rights within the military, and more on the right of the military to do what it does.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:37 am

l82start wrote:
moda0306 wrote:giving generals more control in our wars,
that one i tend to agree with, the need to go to war is as questionable as it always has been, but the idea politicians can run wars based on political decisions should have gone the way of the dodo after Korea and Vietnam, and yet here we are all these years later watching bush (Afghanistan Iraq ) Obama (Afghanistan Iraq Arab spring Syria etc) making the same mistake, i don't want the US to be "world police man" or the MIC to be getting us into wars... but if you did or do have to fight letting the guys that know how to fight be in charge of the fight, is the way to win and be done with it.. the politically run quagmire war is an invention of the military industrial complex a giant cash machine for them, and nothing more..
The "Total War" alternative can often seem like a better alternative to the "perma sorta-war" we seem to fight, but to me considering the threat (or lack thereof) the only moral solution is to back out. If some goat-herders in Afghanistan are a massive risk to the U.S. worthy of total war, then let's just nuke the whole world now and get it over with...

Kidding of course, but "giving the generals more power" is just playing within establishment goal posts to commit more heinous murders while still accomplishing nothing, or "accomplishing" Imperial aims that weren't even morally sound to begin with.

There is no "win and be done with it" with occupational colonialism. You either kill all of them (perhaps that's what you meant by "win and be done with it"), or accept you're going to constantly be sending teenagers to kill babies in perpetuity.

The conditions that justify total war are very, very limited. The conditions that justify removing someone of life or liberty without due process are also very limited. We should end all of that now. Defend our homeland. Nothing more.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by farjean2 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:48 am

moda0306 wrote:Donald Trump is NOT Ron Paul. He's a war-monger police-statist who could care less for due-process, human rights, the 1st/4th Amendments, limited war-making powers, or limiting the scope of the nefarious powers of the CIA or the NSA (he thinks Snowden should be executed, remember?). He might disagree with how these powers are projected, but he doesn't disagree with using them. He's made this abundantly clear both before and after he was elected/inaugurated.
I heard Trump say in numerous speeches that it was time for the U.S.A. to stop being the policeman of the world. So I was hopeful that this might actually be part of the MAGA reformation but I was skeptical because, like you, I heard the exact opposite sentiments out of the other side of his mouth.

Now that he's the new sheriff in town, he obviously sees things differently if he ever really did.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by l82start » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:55 am

moda0306 wrote: The "Total War" alternative can often seem like a better alternative to the "perma sorta-war" we seem to fight, but to me considering the threat (or lack thereof) the only moral solution is to back out. If some goat-herders in Afghanistan are a massive risk to the U.S. worthy of total war, then let's just nuke the whole world now and get it over with...

Kidding of course, but "giving the generals more power" is just playing within establishment goal posts to commit more heinous murders while still accomplishing nothing, or "accomplishing" Imperial aims that weren't even morally sound to begin with.

There is no "win and be done with it" with occupational colonialism. You either kill all of them (perhaps that's what you meant by "win and be done with it"), or accept you're going to constantly be sending teenagers to kill babies in perpetuity.

The conditions that justify total war are very, very limited. The conditions that justify removing someone of life or liberty without due process are also very limited. We should end all of that now. Defend our homeland. Nothing more.
i agree, but i think i am looking at the flip side of it, the all in war is the only type of war we should fight, and since it is seldom to never called for we should be using that fact to stay the hell out of the messy perma wars/politically run wars we are getting our selfs into. i am in full agreement that our colonialism is a failure and a bad idea to start with. having a worlds strongest military is a sound defense, the tough part is keeping it a defense and not using it as an excuse to fight.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:15 am

farjean2 wrote:
moda0306 wrote:Donald Trump is NOT Ron Paul. He's a war-monger police-statist who could care less for due-process, human rights, the 1st/4th Amendments, limited war-making powers, or limiting the scope of the nefarious powers of the CIA or the NSA (he thinks Snowden should be executed, remember?). He might disagree with how these powers are projected, but he doesn't disagree with using them. He's made this abundantly clear both before and after he was elected/inaugurated.
I heard Trump say in numerous speeches that it was time for the U.S.A. to stop being the policeman of the world. So I was hopeful that this might actually be part of the MAGA reformation but I was skeptical because, like you, I heard the exact opposite sentiments out of the other side of his mouth.

Now that he's the new sheriff in town, he obviously sees things differently if he ever really did.
He did say some critical things of U.S. foreign policy, but in other pre-election statements he was also very hawkish and aggressive, but even if we ignore the latter statements, all I can think of when I hear a politician discuss pulling back our military posture in the world is George W. Bush giving one of the most cogent statements of his life in a debate against Al Gore to just that effect. It's one of the oddest things to see. Not only does he advocate for limiting the government's "world policing" power, but he does so with an un-bumbled articulation that sounded like Rand Paul.

I guess that's neither here nor there, other than to say that when I DID hear Trump make those kinds of statements, I never believed him. He was an impulsive blob of contradictions. I don't hold it against some folks who did believe him. What I hold against folks is ignoring what his administration is actually doing.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Maddy » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:51 am

moda0306 wrote: He was an impulsive blob of contradictions.
My own (entirely subjective and purely speculative) interpretation is that Trump came into office with virtually no understanding of the system or of the issues, and that he's had to rely upon a cast of characters with establishment ties to navigate his way through his first 12 months. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that prior to January 2017 Trump hadn't the slightest idea what was in the Constitution or why it mattered. Many of the contradictions, I suspect, are the result of a still-evolving understanding of the issues and of who's playing for what team.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by moda0306 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:56 am

Maddy wrote:
moda0306 wrote: He was an impulsive blob of contradictions.
My own (entirely subjective and purely speculative) interpretation is that Trump came into office with virtually no understanding of the system or of the issues, and that he's had to rely upon a cast of characters with establishment ties to navigate his way through his first 12 months. Many of the contradictions, I suspect, are the result of a still-evolving understanding of the issues and of who's playing for what team.
I can totally get on board with this. I really think he has no idea what's going on. Though I don't know if we agree on whether he really cares to learn.

That lack of knowledge of the system can be a double edged sword... which is why I don't want to see him impeached, as I think Pence is a far-worse alternative. I think a weakened, bumbling President Trump is probably the best thing for this country in some ways. It'll force people to start asking questions about what their government is doing that they never would have been inclined to.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:17 pm

I saw a comment on unz.com this morning that seemed like a simple, good explanation for why the establishment doesn't like Trump:

"mass immigration is all about propping up the ponzi economy by increasing population and increasing consumer demand….
consumer demand is 70% or more of the economy…and the economy is a confidence-based construct…as long as consumer demand stays up, the economy stays up…and if the economy stays up, the CEOs and shareholders of the big corporations keep making millions and profits stay high, and if profits stay high, then the media keeps making money on ads bought by the big corporations…

that is why the establishment and esp. the media hate trump and the alt-right–we threaten immigration and thus we threaten the ponzi economy"

I can't say that I am an alt-right person, because I don't really know what that means, although I suspect I have some sympathy for some of their ideas such as the above. If alt-right means racist, then definitely I am not alt-right, because I love all people, and in fact am married to a wonderful woman of another race. However, just because I love all people, does not mean that I want all of them living in my country. I think they should stay in their own countries and build them into beautiful nations.

In short, no, Trump (sadly) does not appear to be threatening the military-industrial complex, but he has promised to threaten the immigrationistas who prop up the ponzi economy. I love that phrase "ponzi economy" because it rings so true.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:46 pm

stuper1 wrote:I saw a comment on unz.com this morning that seemed like a simple, good explanation for why the establishment doesn't like Trump:

"mass immigration is all about propping up the ponzi economy by increasing population and increasing consumer demand….
consumer demand is 70% or more of the economy…and the economy is a confidence-based construct…as long as consumer demand stays up, the economy stays up…and if the economy stays up, the CEOs and shareholders of the big corporations keep making millions and profits stay high, and if profits stay high, then the media keeps making money on ads bought by the big corporations…

that is why the establishment and esp. the media hate trump and the alt-right–we threaten immigration and thus we threaten the ponzi economy"

I can't say that I am an alt-right person, because I don't really know what that means, although I suspect I have some sympathy for some of their ideas such as the above. If alt-right means racist, then definitely I am not alt-right, because I love all people, and in fact am married to a wonderful woman of another race. However, just because I love all people, does not mean that I want all of them living in my country. I think they should stay in their own countries and build them into beautiful nations.

In short, no, Trump (sadly) does not appear to be threatening the military-industrial complex, but he has promised to threaten the immigrationistas who prop up the ponzi economy. I love that phrase "ponzi economy" because it rings so true.
[devil's advocate]
Why would you want the ponzi scheme to stop? Aren't you a shareholder of the corporations, benefiting from higher profits? Don't you like the extra tax revenue that keeps the interstate highways going? Why do you hate cheap food and gasoline? Why would you want immigrants to stay in their own countries instead of paying taxes in America? Don't you own US Treasuries?
[/devil's advocate]
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