Trump as tragicomedy

[moda0306]

Can you be more specific about the tax fraud you are alleging?

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

[jacksonM]

Disguising taxable gifts as deductible salary income is fraud. He had a $200k "salary" as a child. $1 Million salary as a college student.

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

As I understand it, the statute of limitations on IRS audits is 3 years so basically we're right back where we were with Ms. Ford's accusations. Basically meaningless unless all you want to do is throw dirt.

I have no doubt that Trump and family took advantage of every tax loophole available at the time (as I have - how about you?).

And for the record I would rather have a champion on the right that could match the resume of Barack Obama. Despite his politics that I don't agree with I believe that he represents an amazing and commendable American success story which should go down in the history books alongside those of our greatest heroes.

But those of us more closely aligned with the right, whether we be libertarians or whatever, are stuck with Donald Trump. He's obviously a very flawed character but I think he's viewed as like king David in the Bible. Despite his flaws and even God's ultimate disapproval of his methods, he nevertheless won victories over God's enemies

[Xan]

If anything (and I think the whole analogy is a stretch), Trump is more like one of the pagan kings who in some way advanced God's plan, but were not themselves among God's people. Cyrus the Great, perhaps.

"People are so shocked when they find ... out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church," he said.

Sounds okay so far. He's claiming to be a Christian and I have no reason not to take him at his word.

Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

"I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

hmm.

"I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad."

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" asked Trump. "I work hard, I'm an honorable person."

This all sounds like he doesn't even know what a Christian is, let alone that he is one. Also, either the outlook or the cathechesis (or, likely, both) of whatever Presbyterian church we're talking about is absolutely terrible.

Contrast that with David, who said:

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. (He's like The Shadow that way.) Trying to do better doesn't do it. We need a new one from outside.

Of course, David had to have his violations of God's law thrown in his face to reach this point. What we would call good Law preaching, I suppose. That could still happen for Trump, but hasn't (yet), it would seem.


Sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics ... index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ess-2016-1
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trum ... eo-141856/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV


Edit: I should point out that I don't think it's necessary for POTUS to be a Christian.

[moda0306]

If anything (and I think the whole analogy is a stretch), Trump is more like one of the pagan kings who in some way advanced God's plan, but were not themselves among God's people. Cyrus the Great, perhaps.

"People are so shocked when they find ... out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church," he said.

Sounds okay so far. He's claiming to be a Christian and I have no reason not to take him at his word.

Moderator Frank Luntz asked Trump whether he has ever asked God for forgiveness for his actions.

"I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."

hmm.

"I like to be good. I don't like to have to ask for forgiveness. And I am good. I don't do a lot of things that are bad. I try to do nothing that is bad."

"Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?" asked Trump. "I work hard, I'm an honorable person."

This all sounds like he doesn't even know what a Christian is, let alone that he is one. Also, either the outlook or the cathechesis (or, likely, both) of whatever Presbyterian church we're talking about is absolutely terrible.

Contrast that with David, who said:

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David knows what evil lurks in the heart of men. (He's like The Shadow that way.) Trying to do better doesn't do it. We need a new one from outside.

Of course, David had to have his violations of God's law thrown in his face to reach this point. What we would call good Law preaching, I suppose. That could still happen for Trump, but hasn't (yet), it would seem.


Sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics ... index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-o ... ess-2016-1
https://www.christianpost.com/news/trum ... eo-141856/
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV


Edit: I should point out that I don't think it's necessary for POTUS to be a Christian.

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

[moda0306]

And that didn't trigger any IRS audits at the time?

It would appear not, wouldn't it.

I'm not exactly sure what the IRS' audit lottery matrix looked like back then.

As I understand it, the statute of limitations on IRS audits is 3 years so basically we're right back where we were with Ms. Ford's accusations. Basically meaningless unless all you want to do is throw dirt.

I have no doubt that Trump and family took advantage of every tax loophole available at the time (as I have - how about you?).

And for the record I would rather have a champion on the right that could match the resume of Barack Obama. Despite his politics that I don't agree with I believe that he represents an amazing and commendable American success story which should go down in the history books alongside those of our greatest heroes.

But those of us more closely aligned with the right, whether we be libertarians or whatever, are stuck with Donald Trump. He's obviously a very flawed character but I think he's viewed as like king David in the Bible. Despite his flaws and even God's ultimate disapproval of his methods, he nevertheless won victories over God's enemies

The statute of limitations on general tax return errors is 3-6 years depending on the size of the income misstatement.

The statute of limitations on civil tax fraud is unlimited.

https://www.goldinglawyers.com/tax-frau ... ts-beware/

Grossly misstating the nature of cash transfers are not "loopholes." It's literally lying about the nature of a transfer of wealth to avoid paying tax. This is fraud.

You asked if I've used loopholes... It depends how you define the term. But generally yes at various points I used what I'd consider to arguably be a small "loophole." I have not, however, committed tax fraud. Nor have I grossly exaggerated my private sector business bonafides to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to be elected to the most powerful position in the country, or anything like that on a smaller scale, beyond using a few polished terms on a resume.

As I implied, people who are supposedly concerned with "rule of law" principles should be incensed by this... unless, of course, they don't really care about "rule of law," and are more-so simply concerned with the political power of one group relative to another.

[Xan]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

Well I really have no idea what God's plans are, and I so I have no idea whether Trump is advancing them. Romans tells us that all authorities are put in place by God, and also that all things work together for the ultimate good of the elect, so to that extent, he's advancing God's plans, but in exactly the sort of way that Hillary would have.

Over the past several years I've gotten a lot less certain about exactly what the "right" way is to arrange society, largely thanks to you, Moda, and (begrudgingly) to Kshartle. I have my preferences (which are largely unchanged), but I no longer confuse them with the One and Only Way Things Should Be. As a result I take the political arena much less personally, which is only good for my health and well-being, and I try to find my identity in Christ (that is, whatever God says about me must certainly be true) and not in some political affiliation, which frees me to stop worrying about the things that will pass away, and instead to (try to) care about all my neighbors as people.

What I was trying to say earlier was not that Trump is a Cyrus, only that that's his ceiling: at BEST he's Cyrus and not David.

I think a lot of Christians support Trump for one or more of the following reasons:
* [sadly] They, like him, have a terribly broken view of what a Christian is.
* He promised to nominate to the Supreme Court people "like Scalia" which could ultimately overturn Roe v Wade. This one would put him in the Cyrus category for many. I don't think the recent addition to the Court is enough, but if he were to also replace Ginsburg and possibly even Breyer, things could get interesting. Moda, you should see that Collins speech where she talks about Kavanaugh's strong belief in stare decisis.
* He doesn't see straight white male Christians as the cause of all the world's problems. This could also be Cyrus-y.


EDIT: chopped out some other discussion for replying in the other thread.

[moda0306]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

Well I really have no idea what God's plans are, and I so I have no idea whether Trump is advancing them. Romans tells us that all authorities are put in place by God, and also that all things work together for the ultimate good of the elect, so to that extent, he's advancing God's plans, but in exactly the sort of way that Hillary would have.

Over the past several years I've gotten a lot less certain about exactly what the "right" way is to arrange society, largely thanks to you, Moda, and (begrudgingly) to Kshartle. I have my preferences (which are largely unchanged), but I no longer confuse them with the One and Only Way Things Should Be. As a result I take the political arena much less personally, which is only good for my health and well-being, and I try to find my identity in Christ (that is, whatever God says about me must certainly be true) and not in some political affiliation, which frees me to stop worrying about the things that will pass away, and instead to (try to) care about all my neighbors as people.

What I was trying to say earlier was not that Trump is a Cyrus, only that that's his ceiling: at BEST he's Cyrus and not David.

I think a lot of Christians support Trump for one or more of the following reasons:
* [sadly] They, like him, have a terribly broken view of what a Christian is.
* He promised to nominate to the Supreme Court people "like Scalia" which could ultimately overturn Roe v Wade. This one would put him in the Cyrus category for many. I don't think the recent addition to the Court is enough, but if he were to also replace Ginsburg and possibly even Breyer, things could get interesting. Moda, you should see that Collins speech where she talks about Kavanaugh's strong belief in stare decisis.
* He doesn't see straight white male Christians as the cause of all the world's problems. This could also be Cyrus-y.


EDIT: chopped out some other discussion for replying in the other thread.

Xan,

Thanks for the kind words... and yeah I think "the year of the Shart" was a good struggle looking back, as it really forced us to dive into truth claims around morality in ways that we just wouldn't have been able to without someone dragging us into it.

I'll have to answer those questions at a later time. Lots to get into there.

I know that many times I engage in some very strong language that can definitely sound "leftist" in nature, but I use it when I think it's appropriate and could back it up with facts. I don't use it when I think it's incorrect, poorly-thought-out, irrelevant, etc. Then people start extrapolating all sorts of things about my opinion.

Glad you remember the good ol' days of us and having to team up in the same trench.

[Kbg]

I was going to comment on taxes...let’s just set aside tax policy and the complexity of tax law for the below.

Rich people hire lots of lawyers and accountants to figure out ways to not pay taxes and at the wealth level we are talking about it is likely profitable to do so. Some of these strategies involve pushing the edge in new ways...which if detected usually results in a tax ruling or updated tax law, especially if some enterprising tax lawyer finds or invents a new loophole you can drive through. This is not always a bad thing...one such newly invented loophole at the time brought us 401K plans.

There is a huge difference between playing the above legal game and tax fraud. Tax fraud means lying about the facts and/or breaking existing law which has no statute of limitations at the Federal level. Creative accounting (if legal) and errors made by us mere mortals is not fraud.

Let’s just get this clear...this is NY state. They can investigate and prosecute. If they do then maybe there is something there. If they don’t, then our lefty friends should conclude NYT has published more fake news.

[sweetbthescrivener]

Xan,

What of God's plans do you think he's advancing that are most important to you? I actually find this take pretty honest and refreshing... My priorities might be different, but I can understand the idea of voting for a relative "slimeball" if they can reliably advance an agenda that's important enough to me.

I can take a stab at this one.

One of the ambiguous verses of the Bible is Luke 12:8-10:

I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Many interpretations on that one. Mine is that the Holy Spirit represents the spirit of God in the broadest sense, that is, his plan for conquering the world with love and forgiveness. My evidence is that of all the verses in the Bible, the harshest criticism goes to religious figures who, while pretending to serve God are serving their own ends.

So that is my basic definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, seeking your own ends behind a cloak of godliness.

This principle works in a secular sense as well. The pedophile scout leader, the abusive social worker, the embezzling supposedly loyal employee. Anyone who hides their evil behind fake altruism is an especially bad person.

The spiritual principle, for me, that Trump is advancing, is punishment for this sort of violation. I have become appalled, in the past decade or so, at the hypocrisy and corruption of the left in America. It is not the liberal spirit that I recognize, the one that I once believed in.

The way they have turned their back on the middle class and lower classes, and embraced identity politics and open borders in a craven bid to secure majority voters for the future, is just plain evil to me.

I also take exception to their mode of debate. From what I can see, they just use guilt and shaming language to silence their opponents. They seem to revel in creating division and pushing everyone into opposing camps based not on ideas but on race, sexual identity, gender.

I think they are as intellectually lazy as can be. I also don't understand how you can say you care about underdogs when you fight to get rid of all protections for the individual. Bye bye free speech, bye bye presumption of innocence, bye bye due process, bye bye biology and the hard sciences.

I see them as fat lazy pigs who are basically hypocrites. Not old school liberals, who are awesome and necessary, but identitarians who just string together adjectives to attack others and also to defend themselves.

The value of Trump for me, and I am not saying unequivocally that there is a divine directive behind his victory, is that winning the election has exposed the modern left for what it is.

They were so sure that old white capitalists were relics and far behind them in the rear view mirror, so to have one of them win, and one as crass and bombastic as Trump should have served as the wake up call of the century.

It should have made them regroup and ask what they had done wrong, since the victory was theirs for the taking, and they messed it up.

To put it simply, Trump is a big spanking for people who hide their selfish corrupt selves behind fake concern for the downtrodden.

You can't shame someone who doesn't care what you think.

The fact that he just carries on, and doesn't care if a million screeching feminists in pink hats hate him, doesn't care if the U.N. laughs at his speech, to me this is entirely bracing, and a corrective to all the touchy feely, new agey, wimpy, soft males and overbearing feminists who have dominated the discussion since as long as I can remember.

Crass as he is, he is masculinity giving notice, roaring back, doing his thing and not caring if people call him deplorable.

The real signal he is sending out, in my opinion, is that you don't have to feel shame or guilt because of your color or your gender, and you certainly don't have to feel guilty for something you didn't do.

Donald Trump is how God is choosing to teach the left to stop crying wolf, and start getting on with life.

And they still aren't listening. All I see is doubling down on the original shaming language and fake moral righteousness.

And that is God's way of showing the rest of us what the current iteration of the left is really all about.

[Mountaineer]

sweetbethescrivener,

Interesting analysis. Thanks for sharing.

[dualstow]

I would say Trump doesn’t care what people think when he’s speaking.
Also, I agree that he doesn’t mind being called deplorable.
Still, I think he has an incredibly fragile ego. He most certainly cares about criticism that calls his intelligence into question, or that which describes him as infantile.

It’s more than I’d be able to handle. I’m just saying, he is vulnerable.

[moda0306]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-u ... nance.html

At least he's anti-establishment when it comes to our sick relationship with Saudi Ara..... Nevermind.

[Cortopassi]

You couldn't make this up if you tried.

[Libertarian666]

You couldn't make this up if you tried.

You can't make up any of this. I'm sure many satirists are despondent due to being unable to match the craziness of the so-called "real world".

[bedraggled]

I wonder what Bartleby would think of the above. If I were him, would “I prefer not.” ? But maybe I would.

Herman Melville lived in Albany, NY, down by the docks- no doubt his motivation for Bartleby, or some other book.

[dualstow]

Interesting documentary here, opening with the Russian blackmail-rich dossier on Trumpy.
(Not the existence of it, which is of course semi-old news, but the conversation around it).
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film ... -showdown/

[Cortopassi]

I preface this by saying I voted for Trump....

Just wanted to note now with HW passing, I thought George W. was a poor speaking, bumbling kind of guy while in office. In re-looking at him lately talking about his Dad and life, compared to Trump, he now looks like a well spoken statesman orator.

[jacksonM]

I preface this by saying I voted for Trump....

Just wanted to note now with HW passing, I thought George W. was a poor speaking, bumbling kind of guy while in office. In re-looking at him lately talking about his Dad and life, compared to Trump, he now looks like a well spoken statesman orator.

Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.

For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.

[stuper1]

For me, it's a lot of fun to read what the mainstream media write about Trump's latest speech, basically painting him as the xenophobic, hate-mongering reincarnation of Hitler, and then go find it and actually listen to it, only to be let down again when I just hear him say things that actually sound fairly reasonably (such as that he is going to put his own countrymen first, seeing as how he is actually their president and all).

[moda0306]

I preface this by saying I voted for Trump....

Just wanted to note now with HW passing, I thought George W. was a poor speaking, bumbling kind of guy while in office. In re-looking at him lately talking about his Dad and life, compared to Trump, he now looks like a well spoken statesman orator.

Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.

For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.

Hard to tell given your moving goal posts, but if your assertion is that Trump is a better orator than Obama, I think you're pretty objectively incorrect.

That said, if we're going to talk about "overrated" orators as president, rather than if they're just incoherent nincompoops like Trump, nobody takes the cake like Reagan.

[Cortopassi]

I preface this by saying I voted for Trump....

Just wanted to note now with HW passing, I thought George W. was a poor speaking, bumbling kind of guy while in office. In re-looking at him lately talking about his Dad and life, compared to Trump, he now looks like a well spoken statesman orator.

Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.

For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.

Trump is great for off the cuff stuff at rallies to rile people up, no doubt. But it is always with malice toward someone or something. Never uplifting as far as I can tell.

[stuper1]

Have you actually listened to a whole Trump speech, or just the excerpts provided by the media? Big difference in tone and content.

[Cortopassi]

Have you actually listened to a whole Trump speech, or just the excerpts provided by the media? Big difference in tone and content.

I agree that there is likely a biased view in most media, and I should try to listen to a full speech.

But I'd have to also say, he makes it too easy for media that is biased against him to continue portraying that aspect.

[jacksonM]

I preface this by saying I voted for Trump....

Just wanted to note now with HW passing, I thought George W. was a poor speaking, bumbling kind of guy while in office. In re-looking at him lately talking about his Dad and life, compared to Trump, he now looks like a well spoken statesman orator.

Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.

For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.

Hard to tell given your moving goal posts, but if your assertion is that Trump is a better orator than Obama, I think you're pretty objectively incorrect.

That said, if we're going to talk about "overrated" orators as president, rather than if they're just incoherent nincompoops like Trump, nobody takes the cake like Reagan.

I'd rather have a tooth pulled than listen to a whole speech by any president or politician and that includes Trump.

But my opinion from the soundbites is that Trump actually speaks somewhat like an ordinary person which I find refreshing.

Obama just spoke political gobbledygook and pablum and I always thought of him as the quintessential empty suit just mouthing nonsense to sound smart. Plus he was very condescending.

[Cortopassi]

Trump is no orator but I don't think he speaks that badly. He sure knows how to fire up a crowd. I just think a lot of people don't like what he has to say.

For a president with overrated oratorical skills I would nominate Barack Obama.

Hard to tell given your moving goal posts, but if your assertion is that Trump is a better orator than Obama, I think you're pretty objectively incorrect.

That said, if we're going to talk about "overrated" orators as president, rather than if they're just incoherent nincompoops like Trump, nobody takes the cake like Reagan.

I'd rather have a tooth pulled than listen to a whole speech by any president or politician and that includes Trump.

But my opinion from the soundbites is that Trump actually speaks somewhat like an ordinary person which I find refreshing.

Obama just spoke political gobbledygook and pablum and I always thought of him as the quintessential empty suit just mouthing nonsense to sound smart. Plus he was very condescending.

Agreed to some extent. Again, it might be the bias of the media I am currently consuming, but Trump seems to be a very negative, put down kind of guy, vs. lift up. I've had both kinds of managers in my career and it's pretty easy for me to choose the type I like to work for.
-----------------
I go back to my George W. comments. Of all the recent presidents I would most like to have a beer with, it'd be Carter and George W. They might have made a lot of mistakes but both seem genuine.